This is an unedited tranny with all the misspellings and typos.  It has only been formatted
for better readability.

Topic:  The promotion system within ACTD

Stardate 10305.09
***********************************************************************************************************
Host Beth says:
Okay...let's get started.  Tonight's topic: The promotion system within ACTD....good?  Bad?  ESPC changes adequate? Or needs improvement?

Jane says:
It's way better since the guidelines came out.

Kooky says:
One question ... ESPC?

Phil says:
lol, yeah

Host Beth says:
ESPC are the newest addition to the handbook that formalized the promotion and award system

Jane says:
Things like a player has to be reviewed within a certain period of time.

Phil says:
::whips out his handbook::

Kooky says:
ah ok ... it's been a while since I read the handbook ...

Jane says:
I remember when it came out.  I was very happy to see it.

Host Beth says:
So that's it?  Everybody's happy with it?

Philip says:
lol

Jane says:
Short chat tonight.

Host Beth says:
Yep :)

Jane says:
let me think... I'll find something to complain about it...

Kooky says:
lol

Philip says:
lol

Jane says:
Hey... about this....

Kooky says:
Cathy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Host Beth says:
Come on guys....really...no one has any problems with it?

Jane says:
If a player fills all the requirments and its time for review, should they automatically be 
promoted?

Cat says:
Heya Sandy!

Kooky says:
That depends Jane

Host Beth says:
Sorry Ted..that whisper should have gone to Cathy :)

Philip says:
Maybe.

Host Beth says:
My auto whisper is broken....so for those that just joined...The topic tonight is: The promotion system within ACTD....good?  Bad?  ESPC changes adequate? Or needs improvement?

Ted says:
It didn't go to me.

Cathy says:
Automatic promotions are boring :)

Trish2 says:
it is? It worked fine for me. :)

Trish2 says:
I don't think automatic promotions were the intent of ESPC

Jane says:
No they weren't.

Host Beth says:
Well it's not showing up here...but that's okay....back to Jane: What if the character doesn't warrent a promotion?

Jane says:
Then don't accept it.  :)

Trish2 says:
the intent were that people got reviewed and were informed that they were at least looked at.

Cathy says:
::was on the ESPC committee::

Jane says:
It's easy enough to make a character who doesn't deserve a promotion.

Trish2 says:
::did not find out about the ESPC committee untill too late::

Cathy says:
I have one of those :)

Philip says:
(Probably me, LOL)

Kooky says:
::didn't even know about the ESPC committee until just now::

Host Beth says:
Let me ask this - Do you think that the player and the character should be evaluated seperately?

Philip says:
Yes

Host Beth says:
Or all together?

Cathy says:
Heya Phil! Didn't see ya :) And no, its not you. I meant a character that I've created. :)

Kooky says:
Why Phil?

Philip says:
lol

Philip says:
No reason, just joking

Kooky says:
Gameplay is just as important as character achievement

Jane says:
I don't think the player should be evaluated.

Kooky says:
brb

Host Beth says:
Why not Jane?

Ted says:
Why not evaluate the player, how the play is as important as who they play

Jane says:
Because this is a game...

Cathy says:
I know some fantastic players who play lousy characters that don't deserve promotions.

Jane says:
its' supposed to be fun...

Trish2 says:
What about a player who is really great, and adds a lot to a ship and is not promotable because of the type of character they are

Philip says:
If the player is rude to the people in the OOC and great in missions? Do you look the other way when promotions come up and give them a promo, despite their OOC attitude?

Host Beth says:
Except that there are also requirements and certain criteria that needs to be adhered to...so what about rewarding the player for completeing all of that with a pat on the back?

Cathy says:
How can you promote a character who doesn't derve promotion?

Jane says:
Then they don't get promoted Trish... its based on the character.

Jane says:
Coot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jane says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{[Coot}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Coot says:
!!! Jane !!!

Jane says:
::is happy to see Coot obviously::

Coot says:
!!! Cathy !!!

Cathy says:
If it isn't the missing man :)

Philip says:
lol

Cathy says:
Heya Coot :)

Trish2 says:
but at present we have no way of rewarding players and according to your system we should not reward players

Coot says:
!!! Sandy !!!

Coot says:
::turns off his cloaking device::

Host Beth says:
Trish: I think anyone that plays such a character and is a good player is smart enough to figure out that they won't get promoted

Jane says:
and Phil... I think OOC behaviour should not be taken into account in promotions.

Jane says:
That's why we play them that way.

Cathy says:
Well, the SM and CO can make sure that the player understands why they are not being promoted but that their effort and level of play is excellent.

Trish2 says:
Yes.. but my  feeling is there are other ways to reward a player... such as was described in the 9th fleet that were proposed and denied by upper management

Host Beth says:
Correct cathy...so in essence they are evaluating the player and the character seperately...why not make it official?

Host Beth says:
What was proposed, Trish?

Trish2 says:
let me get the link

Cathy says:
I have no problem with making it official, Beth.

Host Beth says:
:)

Jane says:
What is the player supposedly evaluated on?

Kooky says:
Hiya Coot!!!!!!!!!

Coot says:
hey Sandy!

Cathy says:
Attendence, logs, character development and interaction......and of course how their charcater ticks. ;p

Philip says:
lol

Coot says:
::like a rusty old Timex::

Trish2 says:
http://9thfleet.fleets.acalltoduty.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=50

Host Beth says:
Plus I look at participation level in the mission....

Cathy says:
Oh....and of course the Speedo test.

Coot says:
eek!

Philip says:
o_O

Trish2 says:
there is the link to the player awards...  kind of like a people choice awards

Cathy says:
That is a biggie, Beth.

Host Beth says:
I know...and controversial ;)

Jane says:
How is it controversial?

Philip says:
Imagine a Pakled in a Speedo. ::Shudders.::

Trish2 says:
Beth are you looking at that link?

Kooky says:
lol Phil

Cathy says:
Those awards seem harmless enough.

Trish2 says:
But James told Kurt that he did not want them

Host Beth says:
Jane: Because it is based on a personal guideline as to the level of participation within missions...one player may think just showing up is enough...others just seem happy saying one sentence...

Jane says:
But Beth... we have players with learning disabilities.... for some that's the best they can do.

Kooky says:
Then that is taken into account

Jane says:
Is it?  How do we know if they have a learning disability?

Cathy says:
::shrugs:: James' word is law, Trish. Perhaps he was worried about overwhelming certain players or creating tension.

Host Beth says:
yes and that's taken into consideration...thus the differing guidelines for each one

Trish2 says:
As far as I can tell he was concerned that people would view the subjective awards as being unfair. And unfortunately.... he might be right

Cathy says:
I have watched players go from one liner's to fanatstic players over time :)

Host Beth says:
Trish: These awards are good except that they seem to be monthly or mission based...what if they were adapted in a generic way to meet the evaluation criteria?

Kooky says:
The thing is ... some ppl may not be confident when they start ... but as they gain more experience they get more confident ... I know of one person that applies to ... me!

Cathy says:
It could be a problem on ship that has a few outsanding players.........

Philip says:
Antoher problem arises: Potentially the same people could be winning them all the time.

Philip says:
*another

Cathy says:
::agrees with Phil as thats what she meant:: :)

Trish2 says:
It is my understanding that nominations of these awards are submitted to the command staff and they pick from the submissions

Amber says:
What about giving more comendations/medals to the character?

Kooky says:
What if ... ppl could only be nominated once in a certain time-frame?

Host Beth says:
True Phil...which is probably why James declined it...

Trish2 says:
Beth: I think so.

Cathy says:
Too many awards reduce the value of them.

Amber says:
The same can be said of the above proposed.

Trish2 says:
you could have a most improvement type award.....

Jane says:
True enough Amber.

Philip says:
What could work is One award for Best player of the month.

Cathy says:
Yup :)

Philip says:
and they can't win back-to-back

Trish2 says:
that would go to the player who had made really good improvement in their play

Philip says:
Most improved is good too.

Cathy says:
Ah....but playing devil's advocate, aren't you telling them they stunk up until that point? :P

Jane says:
ummm... yeah

Philip says:
yeah.

Cathy says:
A double edged sword.

Trish2 says:
not necesarily

Cathy says:
Hey Scott

Kooky says:
Hey Scott

Philip says:
I have always felt that most improved was a bad award.

Host Beth says:
What about having awards that aren't based on the players abilities against the other players?  Like....if their character doesn't deserve a promo...then give the player an award if they turned their logs in and met attendance?

Ted says:
Yes but at least the player would know that their effort to improve was being recognized

Pearson says:
evenin

Host Beth says:
Hello Scott :)

Amber says:
I think that would be insulting in a way.

Trish2 says:
LOL well how about the 'A for Effort' award :)

Philip says:
It's not hard to get perfect attendanve and give in logs every week...

Philip says:
*attendance

Host Beth says:
face it...after you make Lt...promos come few and far in between..they have to..otherwise the ships are too top heavy in rank....

Kooky says:
Agreed

Pearson says:
we on the Arty have command meetings that go very well

Jane says:
Yeppers

Philip says:
yeah

Pearson says:
hiya Beth

Kooky says:
And it should be the case, too

Cathy says:
It mimics real life.

Trish2 says:
I just think it is important for players to feel good about what they are doing and if they are making an effort to the game.... there should be something that tells them they are doing a good job besides official awards

Jane says:
Fun is the reward, Trish.

Jane says:
Most of us play for fun, not achievement.

Philip says:
Maybe there needs to be a rank cap on some positions.

Kooky says:
If I feel that a character has done an outstanding job it always goes in my official log ...

Trish2 says:
I don't know of any one who doesn;t like recognition for the effort they put forth

Jane says:
Yes, Sandy... that's the kind of recognition that matters.

Host Beth says:
Yes Jane but can you honestly say you wouldn't appreciate a verbal pat on the back every once in a while?

Jane says:
Play is not effort.

Jane says:
I get them and I appreciate them Beth.

Philip says:
Maybe the awards should be SM/FM's discretion.

Kooky says:
Hey Phil

Pearson says:
as Capt, I tell my crew every day what a good or bad job they are doing, I have individual meetings if they need to improve

Jane says:
I get them informally though... they matter more that way.

Amber says:
The comendations, medals and promotions seem to be highly at the will of the SM which is good and bad.  The ESPC guidelines help streamline it a bit but it needs to be more direct.

Host Beth says:
How so Amber?

Amber says:
For example, I teach martial arts to children.

Kooky says:
On the Scorp (I don't know about other ships) any awards, promotions, etc are always discussed by the Command Crew ...

Amber says:
Prior to promotion to their next rank/belt they must meet a certain criteria set forth for each.

Host Beth says:
Kooky: We do that on the Del also...

Trish2 says:
I think that is what the army does :)

Amber says:
Yes each child is different and is judged on themselves not comparing them to anyone else in the class.

SM_Tech13 says:
We do have "certain criteria"

Cathy says:
I don't think telling a crewmen that they are doing a bad job is helpful, Scott :) Positive reinforcement works better!

Coot says:
the problem with everything is we have grown accustomed to the NG cast and everyone we watched for seven years and three movies has now gone onto Cmdr or higher.... The Ent-E is the is perfect example of what we are trying to avoid...

Cathy says:
Hi Phil!

SM_Tech13 says:
Hey all :)

Pearson says:
on the Artemis, promos, medals and commendations are discussed between myself, my XO and our SM, but the ultimate decision is up to me and my XO

Kooky says:
And ... coming back to Amber's point ... we do the same when it comes to promotion ... we look at each char we are promoting and assess how they would react to certain criteria ...

Host Beth says:
But then there's Voyager where Kim was an Ensign for 7 years :)

Amber says:
But its not exact you must do A,B, C etc.  It is more here are the basics.

Jane says:
Hey Phil!  ::was petting the cat::

Philip says:
Then again, there was no point in promoting them.

Pearson says:
what would you have me do kick them in their butts so that they smell kiwi for a month?

Kooky says:
Tuvok got promoted

Coot says:
Beth:  okay, fair point.... but most folks who got hooked on Trek were/are NG fans ::shrugs::

Philip says:
Paris got demoted, the promoted

Philip says:
but that's a bad example

Jane says:
But we know one of Harry Kim's possible futures is he makes Captain...

SM_Tech13 says:
I probally shouldn't get involved in this debate

Jane says:
Why not Phil?

Cathy says:
::raises a brow at Scott::

Cathy says:
Why not, Phil?

Host Beth says:
Why Phil?  You are more than welcome to participate

Jane says:
I'd love to hear your opinion. ;)

SM_Tech13 says:
Promotions are pretty straight foreward on my ship

Philip says:
When Voyager got back to Earth, I'm sure some officers were promoted.

Amber says:
The point is here in ACTD, we never know really if we are on track or not.  I don't know exactly what I'm supposed to accomplish.  Where as in martial arts each students knows they must do such and such and also do it to the best of their ability.

Pearson says:
it's about having fun...not awrds or promotions

Philip says:
Possibly twice...

Jane says:
How so, Phil?

SM_Tech13 says:
You must show up and you must do logs

SM_Tech13 says:
80% minimum

Jane says:
Okay Amber.... and having that knowledge gives you the freedom to choose if you want to advance or not, right?

Host Beth says:
Phil: What about a character that doesn't deserve a promotion through their actions in mission?

Cathy says:
So, promotions are based soley on that criteria, Phil?

Amber says:
exactly Jane.  I know what I have to do before my next testing.  I'd like to have a clear idea of 
what is expected in ACTD as well.

Jane says:
That makes sense when you put it like that Amber.  And if a person wants to play for fun rather than promotions they can chose to.

Cathy says:
I can honestly say, Amber, that I expect my players to do their best while having fun doing it.

SM_Tech13 says:
::Looking for the right word::

Kooky says:
We try, Cathy :)

Cathy says:
::hands Phil a vowel::

Coot says:
she also expects us to be able to predict the future....

Jane says:
heee....

Kooky says:
LOl

Coot says:
; )

Amber says:
ACTD is for fun, however part of that fun is the ladder to climb.

Jane says:
and Savour the Present....

Philip says:
Yeah.

Cathy says:
And how, preytell, do I do that?

Kooky says:
And don't be tempted by the Devel ::glances at Jane::

Host Beth says:
Amber:  I understand what you are saying but can you give an example as to what  a person would have to do to go from Lt to Lt Cmdr?

Pearson says:
I have an open door poklicy, if anyone on my crew has a problem, they are more than welcome to come to me

Jane says:
::waves at Sandy::

Kooky says:
::waves back::

Cathy says:
Hmm....I think I need to send out misison orders........

Coot says:
Baskin Robbins.... all 31 flavours....

Philip says:
Good idea, Cath ;)

Jane says:
Demonstrate command skills maybe?

Kooky says:
It would help Cathy :)

Coot says:
nah....

Host Beth says:
Okay...that's a good one Jane :)

Trish2 says:
Jane: Not everyone gets the opportunity to demonstrate them until they are in command. Heather is a good example of that

Kooky says:
Have a Lt lead an AT or something to gain command experience

Jane says:
Not true Trish.

Trish2 says:
I never was given an opportunity until I was in command

Jane says:
And anyone near being considered for Lt. Cmdr should be given an opportunity to command.

Pearson says:
I can't speak on the Lt. Cmdr. to Cmdr debate

SM_Tech13 says:
I think helping others get involved in the mission is a command skill

Cathy says:
What is the correct scientic term for a black hole?

Coot says:
Beth:  But what about the great "log" player, but lacks "in mission" or vice versa?

Amber says:
Ok from Lt to LtCmdr.  One will need to have done so many logs, been in mission so many times, actively participated with the ARCs, and shown leadership potential, i.e. lead away teams successfully, etc.

Jane says:
I agree Phil!

Cathy says:
<scientific>

SM_Tech13 says:
Dark spot?

Pearson says:
a void

Kooky says:
That big black swirly thing over there?

Host Beth says:
LOL I always thought it was called a Black Hole :)

Jane says:
I like it Amber

SM_Tech13 says:
Gravimetric anaomily

Trish2 says:
much suckage :)

Coot says:
I always went with event horizon

Cathy says:
Works for me, Sandy :) You guys are heading for that black thingy.

Kooky says:
LOL ..

Coot says:
ack!

Kooky says:
np Cathy!

Philip says:
O_O

Host Beth says:
So once again we are seperating the player from the character in the evaluation?

SM_Tech13 says:
I gotta NPC, sorry folks

Coot says:
but, you can't

Jane says:
I guess we are Beth.

Jane says:
Thanks for dropping in and sharing Phil!

Coot says:
the player needs to be separated...

Host Beth says:
Later Phil :)

Kooky says:
But isn't the player evaluated, in some way, by their logs and attendance?

Jane says:
Yes, but does the player need to be rewarded?

Host Beth says:
So we are back to...how do we award the player when the character doesn't get promoted?

Amber says:
No the player is the character.

Coot says:
drop an anvil on them?

Host Beth says:
Jane: I believe that many do need to know they are doing good.

Philip says:
Cookies :)

Kooky says:
Maybe that's something that an SM can do independently on their ship ::just a thought::

Kooky says:
DONUTS!

Jane says:
Woo!

Jane says:
Where!

Pearson says:
they get a nig fat "no decision"

Coot says:
and chocolate!

Host Beth says:
Amber: What happens if the player is great..fantastic...but their character punches the CO in the face?

Kooky says:
::points:: over there!

Jane says:
Then they get demoted or court martialled.

Kooky says:
::tosses a donut to Jane::

Coot says:
or doughnuts from the XO

Philip says:
And the CO gets to paddle them ;)

Jane says:
unless they are possessed by an alien of course...

Philip says:
lol

Amber says:
That is a choice they have made.  It clearly states in the player handbook that one gets promoted, etc by their actions.

Jane says:
As a player if I choose to play it that way, I know what it's going to cost.

Coot says:
sure demon girl

Jane says:
That almost cost me too much.  ;)

Kooky says:
ok .. then how about this ... what if the Command Crew feels that a player needs to be recognised ... then maybe the SM could arrange something, in conjunction with the Command Crew, to award that player ...

Host Beth says:
But the player turned in all of their logs...plus supplementals...helped others OOM and was early to each and every mission...should that have any impact in the command's decision for evaluation?

Jane says:
You can award the player by giving them a big part in an arc.

Trish2 says:
I think so Beth

Philip says:
yeah

Philip says:
I would love to be a main part of an arc.

Ted says:
Yes

Kooky says:
Or letting them ASM (for the lack of a better term) an arc of their own

Philip says:
good idea.

Jane says:
Beth... I think it is that way.

Jane says:
I play a bad character, but I'm devoted to my ship...

Jane says:
He doesn't get promoted... but I feel loved and special.  :)

Philip says:
o_O

Jane says:
Just because the crew let me know they appreciate me and what I do.

Philip says:
Since when does Possessed= special ;D

Jane says:
LOL

Kooky says:
hehe

Host Beth says:
Trish: You and Phil think that the player's actions should have an impact on the promotion of the character?  Why?

Jane says:
Everyone except Phil of course.  :)

Kooky says:
we luv ya Jane :)

Jane says:
Thanks Sandy.

Coot says:
oh, Jane's special   alright....  ::grabs the straight jacket::

Jane says:
LOL

Kooky says:
LOL

Jane says:
I love it... look at all the attention I get... that's my player reward.

Trish2 says:
Because if the player is helpful it should reflect well upon them as if they are not then that should reflect too...

Philip says:
lol

Kooky says:
Coor: Is that a standard straight jacket or the special model?

Trish2 says:
but that is because at present we have no way of rewarding players for good behavior

Kooky says:
<Coot even> ... I can't type today

Trish2 says:
just punishing them for bad

Jane says:
No formal way no.

Host Beth says:
So who is getting the promotion?  The character or the player?

Jane says:
The character

Philip says:
Both.

Kooky says:
The character

Trish2 says:
At present it is both

Ted says:
both

Coot says:
Sandy gets an extra for the purfekt speeling.... special, btw

Philip says:
lol

Trish2 says:
I know of people who look at thier rank and equate it to their status in the game

Kooky says:
LOL

Host Beth says:
And is that acceptable?  Or does that need to be changed?

Jane says:
Like who Trish?

Amber says:
should be the character.  the handbook is written that way as well.  We need to get away from the person aspect and focus on the player

Jane says:
:;agrees with Amber::

Kooky says:
I don't do that ... all I want to be is a player ... if I have a character who is in command then I will play that way ...

Trish2 says:
A few people. Do I have to name them?

Jane says:
Sure.  :)

Host Beth says:
Heh...I've turned down 4 promotions for my little ensign over the past year and a half....I like my little ensign :)

Host Beth says:
No...no names please :)

Trish2 says:
Moderator note: <edited out>

Kooky says:
After being a Commander it was fun playing an Ensign again when I created Jordan ...

Trish2 says:
sorry Beth.... erase my comment then

Kooky says:
I'd almost forgotten what it was like to be an Ensign ...

Host Beth says:
This is going in the archives and that wouldn't be fair if they aren't here to answer for themselves

Trish2 says:
yes

Jane says:
I think maybe people project sometimes.

Coot says:
it's a subject matter depending on the ship... the SM, CO, XO, 2O, and what the rank make-up is.... there is no perfect formula...  the best way to recognize someone is to recommend them for a Command position in the game

Coot says:
<subjective>

Jane says:
What if their character is a loon?

Host Beth says:
What if they are not capable of command?  I know a lot of players that are fantastic players but suck at command :)

Dawn says:
like me

Jane says:
There are those, and some of us are in command.  :)

Coot says:
then that needs to be explained in an appropriate way

Kooky says:
Or they don't want command

Dawn says:
I don't do command if I can, I feel that I am not ready for it

Amber says:
ah well excuse me I've gotta run.  Going to watch my old ship.

Jane says:
Night Amber!

Trish2 says:
so three minutes to the hour and we've stil no conclusions :)

Kooky says:
I didn't think I would be either, Dawn ...

Jane says:
Thanks for joining us!

Amber says:
thanks for the thought provokers.

Coot says:
Jane = chooses to be a loon.... or get blown up... or kidnapped.... or decides to fly into big planet-like stuff....

Kooky says:
She flies into wormholes ...

Jane says:
We started with a conclusion.  The guidelines have much improved the promotion thingie...

Host Beth says:
Okay I tried as hard as I could to come up with something controversial about the promotion system but it seems that everyone appears to be basically happy with it...right?  ;)

Philip says:
lol

Jane says:
Sounds like fun Coot. :)

Coot says:
it is the best we have for now

Jane says:
I think it works fairly well.

Kooky says:
I think it works

Coot says:
there is a system to it

Trish2 says:
Basically yes...

Cathy says:
Get more controversial next week....do the log thing again. <G>

Dawn says:
For ex.  currently I am a 2nd officer  but that was after I stepped down a XO.  I just didn't feel right in command.  And now I am in command more now as 2nd than when I was xo

Kooky says:
Or at least it seems to in my experience

Jane says:
Yes, that the log thing remains controversial...

Coot says:
very

Kooky says:
Beth: You need NPC's for training tonight?

Cathy says:
Very short MO is out.

Jane says:
Oh yeah.... I gotta get my sup log out tonight before I leave....

Philip says:
o_O

Coot says:
MO? money order?  : )

Kooky says:
Cathy: Due to circumstances beyond my control my log might be a little short ...

Host Beth says:
Actually I have another topic I want to pursue for next week.....How many species is too many for one character to have?  And how do we regulate it?

Cathy says:
Not a problem, Sandy :)

Host Beth says:
I always need NPC's :)

Jane says:
You mean that crossbreed thingie?

Philip says:
I'll be there, Beth

Coot says:
None..... the more the merrier....

Coot says:
: )

Kooky says:
Didn't we already cover it?

Jane says:
We touched on it once.

Trish2 says:
LOL Beth: Brett says send your questions to Brett and he'll answer the species thing

Cathy says:
I have one for you for the future. Should there be a limit as to how many characters one person can play?

Kooky says:
now there's a good one

Ted says:
That should be a good topic

Jane says:
That would be good.

Host Beth says:
We touched on it in an open forum but not as a tspecific topic....maybe I will combine them :)

Cathy says:
Sounds good to me! I'm out of here. I'll be on ICQ later:)

Host Beth says:
Okay guys...I gotta go bandage my little colt's legs....thank you all for coming!!

Jane says:
Gotta go as well.  Night all!

Host Beth says:
I need NPC's if anyone wants to kill...er I mean help my cadets :)

Philip says:
lol

Coot says:
what time?

Philip says:
I will be there

Host Beth says:
In one hour

Coot says:
ok

Host Beth says:
Cool...hate to run but night everyone!