This is an unedited tranny with all the misspellings and typos.  It has only been formatted
for better readability.

Topic:  Can the species in Star Trek really exist?

Stardate 10303.14
***********************************************************************************************************

Tonight's theme: Can the species in Star Trek really exist?

Host Gilles says:
Let's start with something... simple.... #1  How about other life ?   Is there intelling life in our galaxy?  If so... are they like us ?  Different ?

KevNash says:
:: Waxes Darwinish.::

Terry says:
::watches KevNash wax and gets the cloth ready for polishing::

Host Gilles says:
::pokes room to get folks to speak::

Dawn says:
::is thinking about the topic::

ted says:
we would be arrogant to believe that we are the only intelligent life in the cosmos

Host Gilles says:
::nods:: Very true Ted...

Host Gilles says:
So... are they like us ?  Different ?

KevNash says:
We would be arrogant and very lonely if that were the case. Also depenting on the chemical structure life could be very differant indeed.

ted says:
i depends on the evironment of the planet on which they live.  intellance is a truth.   the bodily form changes with living conditions

Host Gilles says:
Would they be even close to what we see in Star Trek or completely different?

ted says:
i believe they would

KevNash says:
Star Trek offers a wide template to work with. We could see something vaguely close to the representations depicted.

ted says:
in star trek we have encountered some many different lifeforms.

ted says:
some must be similar

Host Gilles says:
Would we see Vulcans ?  Andorians ?   Or something like the Medusans.... something so ugly we can't bear to see ?

Greg says:
Gilles, working in a job where I get to meet an awful lot of people, I can assure you, the Medusans exist, and are on the planet :-)

Host Gilles says:
LOL

ted says:
thats hard to say.  those characters were created to reflect a dark image

KevNash says:
Too many unknowns in that question. Anything is possibel.

Mark says:
That is a deep philosophical question worth looking into

KevNash says:
possible even.

Host Gilles says:
Ok... let's try something else....    Bipeds ?   or Something else ?   4 arms ?  2 Heads ?

Mark says:
Makes me think if there is uniquness in the universe or not

Host Gilles says:
Would we find other humans ?

Cathy says:
More likely.

Mark says:
I think the question would be, mediphorically, would we find Eden?

ted says:
again i believe that is dictated by living conditions

GregC says:
not unless they came from someplace just like Earth
ted says:
whose idea of eden is the question

Greg says:
If we can find another earth-like planet about the same age, I think it likely that there would be something we could recognise... all the ifferent life forms on earth, in soe ways, so similar... rats, sharks, humans - we all have a mouth, eyes, recognisable organs

Cathy says:
Why Eden? If there is one Earth, why not more?

KevNash says:
Well not to quote biblical scripture but we were created in the image of our creator. So I'm sure there would be other bipedal races out there on planets with our same makeup.

Greg says:
If such diversity could have such in common here, why not elsewhere?  Learning to communicate with it?  That would be the hard bit...

Dawn says:
::wondering why she has the TNG episode "The Chase" on her mind::

ted says:
but who says our creator is the only creator

Mark says:
I had a large discussion with my Rabbi about this very thing

ted says:
what if our God is a creation of another even higher form

KevNash says:
that's true. That's why I'm not confining that statement.

Dawn says:
What if a race of beings really did seed many oceans millions of years ago like in the TNG 
episode "The Chase"

Greg says:
our 'creator' would be the natural environment in which we live, which we've evolved to live in.  Find a similar environment, you'll probably find something similar that lives there.

Host Gilles says:
Good point Dawn.... In "The Chase" Someone seeded the planet's to form humanoids all over... EONS ago... Is that possible in realilty?

ted says:
that would stand to reason greg

KevNash says:
That would be the one about Galen's Ancestral Species wouldn't it?

Host Gilles says:
Correct Scott

Dawn says:
that's it

Mark says:
I wonder if we found aliens would religion and culutre then even matter anymore? I mean everything we believe in as humans would change so dirasticaly maybe we beingJewish just isn't important

Mark says:
to me that is

Host Gilles says:
Space exporation would probably entail uss looking for similar planet's like Earth

ted says:
the aztecs based their religion on things they didn't know how to explain,  whose to say those beings were terrestrial in nature

Host Gilles says:
So... we might find something.. or even someone else there... we could find a planet full of dinausaurs.

Host Gilles says:
No Mammals.

Dawn says:
Mark:  Who says that "God" isn't/wasn't in reality a race of alien beings of some sort.   Example.  The TNG episode "Who Watches the Watchers?"  The Mintankans <sp>  thought Picard was a "God"

Mark says:
i gues sit posible for a planet be going through early evoltuion

ted says:
what if the dinosaurs hadn't become exinct, they would have been the dominat species here

KevNash says:
At first yes, but with what we know now and the advance of detection, we could find other life based on a different set of rules and chemicals.

Mark says:
Dawn: Then again who is to say such a thing happend right?

Dawn says:
Mark:  True.

Host Beth says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Everyone}}}}}}}}}}}  I'm sorry I was late....I hope Gilles beat you into submission for me?  <eg>

Mark says:
Dawn: It would be hard to rationalize something like that you know which is why we hardly have evidence for anything really yet people like me still believe

ted says:
the seeding of our world would explain the difference betweem religeous beliefs and darwins theory

Mark says:
actually most newer religions accept darwinism

Host Gilles says:
Scientists have found solar systems with planets (so far they have mostly found Gas Giants) .. so we got that part over

ted says:
yes but for years the churches didn't

Host Beth says:
Hmmmmm....I thought this was a discussion about species on other planets... :)

Mark says:
reform Judaism started on the basic of Darwinism, always has....

Sy says:
I though so too :)

Host Gilles says:
I thought so too    LOL

Mark says:
lol

Greg says:
Me too

Mark says:
we're off topic and it's my fault I take the fault

KevNash says:
We haven't even gotten out of our solar system yet.

ted says:
back to the aliens

Host Gilles says:
If one finds planet's with an atmosphere like ours... what would we find?

Mark says:
there is proably life out there but I think it's remote, non-human yet, in very early evoltuion

ted says:
there is no reason that an intelligent lifeform couldn't evlolve on a gas planet

Host Beth says:
No fault allowed in her, Mark :)

Host Beth says:
<her=here>

KevNash says:
More than likely if out chemical structure rules apply, something similar to us.

Mark says:
thx Beth

KevNash says:
<out = our>

ted says:
thats our rules.  what we still don't understand in the universe is immense

Host Beth says:
Has this been asked?  Why do we automatically assume that a species would be oxygen breathing?  After all O2 is a highly corrosive gas....

KevNash says:
Corrosive and combustable.

ted says:
and an accererlant to other chemical reactions

Host Gilles says:
Universe is big... we don't even leave the galaxy in Star Trek (only by accident)   so what about our galaxy?

Cory says:
Who knows about our galaxy.. but I believe for sure there is life in others

Mark says:
Is the world of Carl Sagan...."Billions and Billions..."

Host Beth says:
SETI says they got 150 fairly decent hits that they are investigating...

Mark says:
That's how big we are
Ted says:
we were discussing this the other day at work.  what if this is the second time around for this planet

Cory says:
what do you mean ted?

Greg says:
As I recall, SETI are also saying that the odds of any one of those 150 turning out positive is roughly 1 in 10,000.  But that's still better than nothing.

KevNash says:
I still go back to the point that what we know of the elements and the way they work is the key to what we will find.

ted says:
we know that the continents have been fractured apart

ted says:
what if we evolved to a point that we destroyed ourselves with our own weapons

Sy says:
If one thinks about our planet... the type of life form that flouishes more than any other are insects... just thought I would throw that out :)

Cory says:
never know..

ted says:
if would explain why the rest of the galaxy isnt interested in contacting us

Mark says:
All I knoe is what I believe we all life has a purpose of there are others out there is this huge galaxy of posibily then it is definatly posible

Host Beth says:
Well it is a fact that a species is only around for aprox 4 million years before evolving into something completey different or becoming extinct.. :)

Greg says:
I think we just found an excellent line to use if future discussions ever get seriously out of hand :-)#

Host Beth says:
LOL

Mark says:
good one

Sy says:
hehe

Cory says:
LOL

Host Beth says:
::looks around:: It's okay guys...we still have 3.3 million years to go...so you don't have to worry about it ;)

KevNash says:
I thought cave paintings put bipedal humanoids at around 65 million +2003 of recorded history?

Greg says:
LOL ::starts his stopwatch::

Host Beth says:
I don't know about those...Kev :)

Mark says:
well not always, people are defined by race and culutre which some are slowly becoming non-existant

KevNash says:
Well getting back to Gilles point, Large reptiles were first, now mammals, what's next?

Host Beth says:
How about this little quandry: In ACTD we have a lot...and I mean A LOT of half-breeds...do you think that these different species could actually produce offspring together?

ted says:
but eartinlings make it worse.  we not only force evolution due to environment. but we force it socially

Kyle says:
no

Kyle says:
in unless you had some techbnical help

Kyle says:
the different chromosones and such

Greg says:
nope

Cory says:
Beth, if they had the same type of configuration.. maybe

Greg says:
we know that Trills and Klingons need medical assistance to conceive

Host Beth says:
Sheesh...I think I left my typing on the freeway :)  I meant half-breeds :)

Kyle says:
i have a mut character

Kyle says:
trill/betazoid

KevNash says:
Most are bipedal humanoids so that is possible. Look at how many different breeds of dog or other animal you can create.

Sy says:
Humanoid species will have a lot more in common in the chrosomes than non-humaniod

Mark says:
i guess it depends if we have same organs yet if random evoltuion happend the chaces ar slim that we'd be perfectly connected to other beings yet if there is a design then maybe not

Mark says:
Hard to say

Host Beth says:
Hmmmm...so you say that many of the characters in ACTD couldn't exist? <g>

ted says:
but that is how new lifeforms are made trial and error

KevNash says:
I say they would.

Sy says:
I say they would

Host Beth says:
What about my half-breed...Klingon/Betazoid....

Greg says:
A couple of years ago, there was an animal born at a farm somewhere 'round here, and it was odd, it didn't look like any other animal.  They eventually figured it out; a Zebra and a horse had mated, and produced a half-breed.  But it would only work if the zebra was the father, becasue they have less chromosomes, the others were simply inherited purely from the mother.  If the zebra had been the mother, and the horse the father, 

Mark says:
just depends on if the organs fit

Greg says:
there would have been too many chromosomes from the father to match up with those in the egg.  So half-breeds would sometimes be possible depending purely on which sex each of the parents was.

Host Beth says:
Okay..Klingon father/ Betazoid mother...AND she's got a twin brother...possible?

KevNash says:
hmmm An empathic warrior.

ted says:
but thats a begining

Kyle says:
what about my sexy trill/betazoid would she be possible?

Host Beth says:
Kev: Yeah...she'll kill ya in a heartbeat but will feel really, really bad about it afterwards :)

Mark says:
depends on the pysiology of both species...pardon my spelling

Sy says:
lol.. aint that the truth

Host Beth says:
::thwaps Sy:: Hush you... :)

ted says:
as long as the mating took place before implation of the symbiant

Mark says:
as long as the female can hold a child from other species too

Sy says:
why before?

KevNash says:
Well in dogs and cats, the sex doesn't matter, so why would it apply to our characters?

ted says:
then you are asking for the combination of three different dna chains

Sy says:
ted: not necessarily

Kyle says:
in B5 there are only two hybrids I think

ted says:
why the symbiant although compatible to the trill is a lifeform in of itself

Host Beth says:
Devil's advocate here:  Dogs and cats...they have the same organs...roughly in the same place...are both quads...but are two different speacies....they can't produce off-spring...so what's so different from the alien species?

Mark says:
how are we to knowanything there is prrof?

KevNash says:
But the Trill is a seperate matured life form and independant from the host. The symbiont will survive after the death of the host.

ted says:
not to get into physiology but the plumbing on a dog and a cat are different

Host Gilles says:
::coughs::  Mules.... Horses.. .and Donkeys.....   and they are sterile

Host Beth says:
Yep Gilles..but only if it is a male donkey and a female horse...:)

Sy says:
Yes I think some of these crossings would have "problems"

Host Gilles says:
::nods::

Kyle says:
couldn't the mother

Kyle says:
immune system attack a hybrid fetus?

Host Beth says:
Yes..and that does happen..

ted says:
possibly

KevNash says:
The crux of this point is that we are talking about excuse the words "lower, inferior life forms" with out the ability to reason. Maybe there is a different set of rules for the reasoning creatures.

Host Beth says:
Okay----Let's take Spock for instance...Human Mother..Vulcan Father....red blood...green blood....

Host Gilles says:
Bah.... biology is biology.... Rats.. cats... dogs... humanoids

ted says:
the ability to reason and invent may be enough to overcome any problems

Mark says:
he had green blood though didn't he

KevNash says:
:: Gets out the punnet square.::

Greg says:
he ha green bloo, his heart where our livers are, and the pointed ears

Host Beth says:
yes he did....and if a human would reject another human organ transplanted...then SPock's birth was something miraculous right?

ted says:
like a dog.  the properties of the stronger breed dictate the appearence

Mark says:
Beth, very true

Sy says:
well what we look at in textbook (for where the heart is and such) is just an "avg" so to speak... some peoples organs are not in what we call the normal spots

ted says:
some peoples hearts are on the right side instead of the left, usually true in twins

Sy says:
actually in most it is in the center

KevNash says:
Well look at Alexander Rojenko. His mother was Romulan/Human/Klingon and his father was Klingon.

Host Gilles says:
::blinks::   Really ??   Organs move ??     ::checks Google::

Sy says:
lol

Host Beth says:
::prepares to get blasted:: So maybe Star Trek made a mistake?  Didn't quite research their species correctly or at all? ;)

ted says:
no its to the left.  got a crash course in cardiac knowlege when my father had open heart surgery

Greg says:
K'Elenn didn't have Romulan blood did she?  I thought it was just Klingon/Human?

Mark says:
Star Trek does make some mistakes yes

Host Gilles says:
Scott: No Romulan in there

Greg says:
oops, K'Ehleyr

Host Beth says:
hehe..Mark..I've been ostracized for saying that in some places :)

Sy says:
hehe

KevNash says:
It does, but it gives us a way to be positive about our first contact with something other than ourselves.

Greg says:
'coring to the 'peadia, "K'Ehlyr's mother was human, and her father was Klingon"

Mark says:
I usually am ostracized wherever I go and am used to it....lol

Host Beth says:
heh

ted says:
why not if the chase episode was correct then they should be compatible

Sy says:
good point

Host Beth says:
Except in Voyager we were told that Klingons and Humans children are often lost before birth...

Greg says:
not lost... just spinal issues

Sy says:
Well most Human life is lost before birth

KevNash says:
If we were a seeded species, than why would other worlds be seeded with incompatible species. I think the grand plan would be to create new and strange life.

Greg says:
I say "just", obviously spinal issues are seirous, but it wouln't necessarily result in the loss of the feotus, 'merely' loss of mobility in life 

ted says:
difficult to mix a species with redundant bodily systems and humans with the one system

Host Beth says:
Thanks Greg..:)  .I saw that a long time ago and was wondering if what I remembered was correct....and true to form  it wasn't :)

Greg says:
Doc stuffed up there, he told the that complication was very common in females.  They didn't wanna know the sex! <G>

ted says:
top of the spinal column helps control breathing, ask christopher reed

Host Beth says:
::chuckles and pictures a Klingon/Human with three hearts 6 kidneys 3 stomachs...four lungs...and wonders where they all fit::

KevNash says:
Superman? Christopher Reeves

ted says:
yes the one who is now paralyzed

Host Beth says:
Five minutes to go folks...

ted says:
he is on a respirator because of the damage to his spinal column

KevNash says:
Beth: That would be stack 'em deep sell 'em cheap. LOL

Host Beth says:
Before you all leave I'll ask the usual: Any topic that you want brought up?

Host Beth says:
LOL Kev :)

ted says:
the characters in strar trek will always exist as long as we need heros to root for and villians to see those heros battle

Host Beth says:
True Ted...

Host Beth says:
Don't all speak at once with topics....you are deafening me :)

KevNash says:
Also the rules don't apply in fiction. Gives us hope.

ted says:
we could always do the temporal intrusion debate.  did we do more damage than good by time traveling

SM_Tech13 says:
Best Sci Fi Author

Host Beth says:
Good...both of those..thank you :)

KevNash says:
How has the series and the movies diverged from Roddenberry's  plan since his death?

SM_Tech13 says:
Maybe I can make it on time next week

Host Beth says:
Excellent one Kev!

Host Beth says:
Now don't forget that soon we will be continuing our debate whether logs should be discarded form the chat game or not...:)

SM_Tech13 says:
Nice to see my crew here though :)

Host Gilles says:
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..  ::falls on floor::    Nigh folks

Host Gilles says:
<Night>

SM_Tech13 says:
We will?

Sy says:
Night Gilles

SM_Tech13 says:
Night G

Host Gilles says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Friends }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}  Laters

Host Beth says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Gilles}}}}}}}}}}}} A thousand thank you's for stepping in tonight!

Dawn says:
later Gilles

ted says:
good night

Host Gilles says:
:-)

KevNash says:
night Gilles

Host Beth says:
Yes Phil....I am still getting emails about that one :)

SM_Tech13 says:
Oh thats not an official debate then?

ted says:
time for me to beam out, have to study begin my cadet training on monday.  lots of reading.

KevNash says:
night folks.

Host Beth says:
No I'll make it a topic again since so many people wanted to speak but we ran out of time...

SM_Tech13 says:
Night Ted,

Host Beth says:
Yaaaayyyy Ted!  Night :)

Host Beth says:
And I need to get out of my jacket...I just sat down from coming home... :)

Host Beth says:
{{{{{{{{dar}}}}}}

Sy says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{Dar}}}}}}}}}}}

Host Beth says:
I want to thank everyone for coming tonight and participating :)