This is the transcript of the themed chat.   The format has only been edited for readability only, the rest is left  as is with all of our spelling, typing and grammatical mistakes left in all their glory. 

Time:  Stardate 10302.28  
Topic: Should logs be a requirement in the Chat Division of ACTD?
Host: Beth Kelley
Room: #Soapbox

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Host Beth says:
************************
Host Beth says:
Welcome everyone to the Themed Chat :)  Nice to see such a big crowd ::grins::

JamesG says:
::looks over ben's sholder also smiling at beth::

Host Beth says:
Since I'm sure everyone has feelings about this topic and has something to say - let me set a few ground rules first:

Ben says:
::Leans back in his chair::

Host Beth says:
Rules: We will keep it free form until it looks as if people are not able to get a word in edgewise...then we will switch to a more moderated form.  Please, no filabusting {sp?}...if you have something to say, say it quickly.  In fact it will help if you have things typed out beforehand.

JamesG says:
::Gets hit in the eye by ben's chair. Cures a bit, and then sits back in his chair::

Host Beth says:
Let others say their piece also.  If it looks like the discussion may go on longer than one hour we can continue with this topic next week.

Host Beth says:
But the most important rule is: Everybody is entitled to their opinion.  Disagree with it you may....attack it you may not!!

Jane says:
::nods::

Malachi says:
Sounds great. :-)

Host Beth says:
Now let's get ready to rumble!!!!!!!  <big grin>

JamesG says:
Attacking In general however is ok.

Tach says:
Hi Gilles, hi Ty, hi Cathy, hi Arlene

Jane says:
woo hoo!

Greg says:
::raises hand:: Move to set lines for the latecomers. ::runs:: hey guys :-)

Keith says:
::rumbles::

Jane says:
::tries to recall her opinion about the issue::

KevNash says:
:: Comes out with his dukes up.::

Keith says:
LOL@Jane

Kooky says:
::doesn't even know what the topic is::

Host Gilles says:
Logs..... required or not?

Jane says:
as a long time player... naw..... boring.....

Jeremy says:
Logs are the greatest expieriance in the Chat division in my opionion if they are gone so am i....optional i could see it....i suppose

Jane says:
Required.

Malachi says:
Not required, but optional.

Tach says:
Logs make the characters 3 dimensional.

Jane says:
Logs are one of the best parts of the game.

Arlene says:
Required...  Best place to develope your character.

Cathy says:
::agrees with Jane::

Jane says:
::agrees with Arlene::

Kooky says:
I agree with Steve ... you learn far more about chars from Logs than you do by just playing

Host Gilles says:
But we have PbEM  for those who love to write logs....  why have them required in Chat?

CJ-Tala says:
Optional. They're great character building tools, but they should be left to the other divisions as a requirement. NG and PBeM each require 1 post per week, IRC would then require 1 post and 1 attendance - it's not equal.

Malachi says:
Logs are the worst part of the game. You want to write, go to PBeM.

Jane says:
PBeM is an entirely different game.

JamesG says:
Logs can be great, unless of course they are required. In such case some do not put their all into them.

Noel says:
I think logs should stay mandatory. I'm in a log-optional sim outside ACTD and of the 21 players we usually get only 3 logs

Host Gilles says:
::is the Devil's Advocate::

Greg says:
I think logs should be optional.  I' probably going to get crucified if people find this out, but since I' about to say it, here goes my job.  I don't remove my crewembers for getting behind on their logs.  If I did, I'd have an empty ship. Logs are good, but they're not the heart of an IRC game - that's the 1 hour mission, which I *do* remove when people miss too much.

Ty says:
But wouldn't eliminating the log requirement mean that the logs that did get sent out ... the optional ones ... would likely have a much higher quality level than the ones that are required/forced out and end up being two lines of garbage?

Host Beth says:
Gilles: You're just a little devil, period...

Host Gilles says:
:-)

Malachi says:
::Agrees with Ty::

Jeremy says:
i don't think many of the players appriciate what they can do in a log.....

CJ-Tala says:
Honestly, I love doing logs, but it can be a pain having to be required to do them every week. My creativity is more free when I know I can write on my own terms.

Tach says:
Can't speak for PBEM, but logs and Newsfleet post are barely even related.

Dawn says:
To me, doing logs is a VITAL part to your characters growth. If you want to let all know how your character is doing, logs are a great way to get it through, without any further explaining in the actual mission.

Malachi says:
If people did it because they wanted to, you would get things that acually had effort put into them.

KevNash says:
I think logs give a sense of purpose to the characters and allow people to come up with interesting ideas they not be able to express in mission. I vote for required, but if optional I'll do them anyway for character development.

Jane says:
Two lines of garbage means the player sat down and thought about the mission... relived it....

Noel says:
even if you only get one

Cathy says:
Logs are a place to tie off losse ends that get left unfinished in missions. Without them, the game would be too ragged.

Jane says:
In reliving it then writing anything they gain a deeper understanding of their character.

Keith says:
I think logs are an essentail part of the game. Lets face it, if you had to base everything you know about a character soley on thier in mission actions, you'd have a two dimentional character at best, by fleshing them out in logs, you truly breath life into them. We don;t have the luxery of seeing facial expresions in a mission, you can in logs

Cathy says:
<loose>

JamesG says:
Also in some cases the older players just fill their logs with the same nonsense every time, just so they can only have a one line log.

Jane says:
::agrees with Keith::

CJ-Tala says:
You see players who do half fast logs because they want to, and that takes away from the game, then you have players who love doing them. Let the players who want to, do it, but don't punish those who don't hav the time or creativity.

Malachi says:
Logs are also sometimes absurd given time restrictions. If there's a 5 second gap during a battle, then who would really sit at their station and do a log?

Jane says:
It's not quality of logs that counts.

Cathy says:
If logs are optional, no one will write them.

Ty says:
Precisely ... I'm all for character development, and I agree that logs are where that occurs, but not everyone is here for character development. I'm all for optional logs because I think making them optional would relieve the burden of being "required" to write them and would lead to fewer logs, but with much higher quality.

JamesG says:
I think a log should be able to be replace with an OOM.

Host Gilles says:
Cathy is probably correct

Ty says:
Cathy, how can you think that is true when we have player's writing two and three logs a week on some ships?

Greg says:
Logs are wonderful.  Don't get me wrong, I love reading good ones.  But I would infinitely rather have logs that people wanted to write, and poured their hears into than a 1 liner written 5 minutes before the eadline because they're compulsory.

Cory says:
I agree with Cathy.. no one would take the time

Jane says:
::agrees with James::

Trish2 says:
Well I know that I would write them

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: I've run games where they were optional, they still got done by those who thought it mattered.

Jeremy says:
I am not speaking for many but if logs were optional i would do more just to prove a point

Kooky says:
I probably would still write logs ... and I'm am NOT a creative person ..

Jane says:
ACtually.... James has a great idea!

Greg says:
People would still write if they were optional.

JamesG says:
:)

Keith says:
Which is?

Trish2 says:
but not for all of my characters or all the time

Tach says:
Or no one will read them, just as bad.

CJ-Tala says:
If you make it optional you may only get 3 a week, maybe less, but at least you don't have to harrass players "do your logs, or you're removed."

JamesG says:
OOMs should be able to replace logs.

Jane says:
Great idea!

Arlene says:
Not everyone has the time to OOM

Jane says:
I love reading anything from my ship.

KevNash says:
I also think logs would be a great tool for those who decide to write an arc for their ship. If you know how the characters interact, you can write something that could be interesting.

Ty says:
Yes, and those three you got would probably much better than the 10 you get now.

Kooky says:
I know I don't

CJ-Tala says:
Not everyone has the time to do logs.

Cathy says:
I have seen some go from one line logs to wonderful, enriched logs. They also become more involved in the game.

Kooky says:
Have time to OOM, that is

JamesG says:
They just take as much time. And that way those who hate writing logs can get together do an OOM and still get credit.

Keith says:
I thin OOM's should count in some way....hmmm...replace.....::thinks::

Malachi says:
No, because that forces people who don't have the time to do an OOM to sit and write a really bad log 5 minutes before mission.

Dawn says:
What if your SM does a NO TIME LAPSE, there is NO WAY for you to do an OOM

Cathy says:
OOMs can't be forced.

Jane says:
OOM or a log... it would be your choice Sandy.

Arlene says:
You do a thought Log Dawn

Dawn says:
ahhh

CJ-Tala says:
There's also no time to do a realistic log...

Trish2 says:
there is always the reflective log

Cory says:
OOMs are usually longer then logs... if you are complaining about time there is no point

JamesG says:
Sure there is, a single player OOM can also be done. Which is kinda like a log

JamesG says:
And that can be done in a moment.

Malachi says:
Dawn: Same thing with a log.

CJ-Tala says:
You can't think a 5 page log in a no time lapse scenario...it's not plausible...

Jane says:
Find a partner, meet for 15 minutes... submit transcript.  Log done.

Host Gilles says:
In one's mind one can do plenty in 5 seconds for a thought log

CJ-Tala says:
Optional is a way that lets the player decide what he or she wants to do...

JamesG says:
Exactly. Or spend 15 making a terrible log.

Arlene says:
Chris you can always do something with your characters thoughts.  That is just as viable...  A log doesn't have to be be a regurgation of what happened in the mission.

Keith says:
OOM can be a jumping off point to write also. No time lapse can always be adressed as a memory that occurs to you at the time. Then your stuck in the past

Jane says:
Right James.

Jane says:
I love your idea.  :)

Tach says:
Actually I did an OOM between 2 of my own characters for a log once.  It was great fun and, I think, one of my better logs.

Trish2 says:
not unless you do exactly what happened to your character in the mission in your log... kinda like a page or a chapter out of a novel

Cathy says:
We have done wuite a few joint logs. they can be fun :)

Malachi says:
But they usually end up being regurgitations, because of people who don't want to put the effort in.

Cathy says:
<quite>

JamesG says:
I'm glad....I love writing logs, and doing OOMs...but it would be nice to do 3 ooms and forget the log sometimes.

CJ-Tala says:
Arlene: I know, I do thought logs all the time, but realistically, by the time I hit enter, and go to hit the next key, I'm not going to have some profound thoughts - it doesn't happen every moment of every day...

Jane says:
Really Chris?

Jane says:
But just describe what happened.

CJ-Tala says:
I love doing logs, and writing about my characters, but I also see my crew's writing half fast logs, and it doesn't seem like it's worth the time for them.

Jane says:
At the very minimum.

CJ-Tala says:
...but then you have 12 people repeating the same thing, just from a different point of view. Sure it's 3D, but people get bored of that and don't like doing it every week...

Keith says:
What about this, give the player a choice, say an OOM or a log. Whats a drag is when you do three OOM's then the SM or Capt complains that you didn't do a log. I can see both sides here I think

CJ-Tala says:
Some, sure they love it. But can we really force everyone to do that?

Jane says:
It clarifies the situation Chris.

Jane says:
It's valuable even for that.

Cathy says:
Perhaps if players are given more time to turn in their logs?

JamesG says:
If 3 people who do a half log were to get together, and spend 15 minutes doing an OOM. They could probably do something better together, and the 3 regular logs apart.

Jeremy says:
well...i know some players that don't write logs now.........so if it were optional....sheesh

Jane says:
We can't force them Chris.

Malachi says:
How much? It still ends up being mandatory, just delayed.

Keith says:
Cathy: How? We're on a weekly time frame

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: That's an option, but wouldn't it just delay things...

Malachi says:
<How much time>

Host Beth says:
Okay..let me clarify a point:  OOM's are NOT a requirement..they are an option. :)

Jane says:
Right.

CJ-Tala says:
Beth: Yes, so why can't logs be an option?

JamesG says:
Time doesn't help in doing logs.

Jane says:
We're suggesting they can count as a log.

Host Gilles says:
But OOMs as a replacement for logs... I like that

Cathy says:
Some ships require logs to be turned in within 24 hours.

CJ-Tala says:
We can't force people to do OOMs, so why force them to do logs?

Tach says:
People can do that, just write what happened in the OOM.  Some people send it out word for me.

Cory says:
Time lapse that are like a few seconds does not give u time to do an OOM either..

JamesG says:
I've been on ships where I've had plenty of time and no time. and it was just as motavating....

Keith says:
I think the Either Or would be a good compromise

Tach says:
Why force them to use ** to indicate communication?  It let's people know what's going on, just like a log does.

Jeremy says:
I have done plenty of OOM's where i turn in the OOM and write a paragraph or so for the log...is there a difference?

Cathy says:
Depends on the OOM.

Trish2 says:
I believe the PH says they must be turned in 24 hrs before mission not after

Jane says:
Chris... its a requirement.  And if people want to move up the chain of command, they can chose to do it.

Host Beth says:
Chris: Because right now...logs are a requirement.  And as for whether logs should be or not...I'm just the moderator <grins>

Kooky says:
Trish2: It does

CJ-Tala says:
Jane: But if they don't, they get removed - is that fair?

Jane says:
No Chris.

JamesG says:
Or even think of this. Those who just did the mission do an extra 15 minutes afterwards, and send it in as a group log.

Jane says:
That is not fair.

Malachi says:
Logs don't let people know what's going on. They're usuallt just summaries of the mission, which everyone participated in anyway.

Jane says:
They don't progress, but they shouldn't get booted.

CJ-Tala says:
Exactly, which is why it should be a choice. Those who do the logs get bonus credit, those who don't, well - don't.

CJ-Tala says:
Jane: I agree with you fully.

Cathy says:
People who can't OOM should not be booted.

Jane says:
I see what you are saying, Chris.

Greg says:
Judging from attitudes to logs I've seen over the past four years, there are some people who will always write logs, sometimes multiple logs per week.  There are some who will write a 1 liner twice a month, and gripe about being forced to do that uch.  That will never change, and by freeing the people in the latter category to not have to do something they hate can only be beneficial for their attitude towards the game.

Cathy says:
Sorry, punished.

Jane says:
Of course not, Cathy.

JamesG says:
I think something is necessary.

JamesG says:
I'm not for voting for neither.

CJ-Tala says:
Isn't attendance necessary?>

Malachi says:
::Agrees with Greg::

Arlene says:
Chris, then we still have the problem where people who don't get the extra credit complaining about why they are not advancing.

Keith says:
As far as removing people for not doing logs, we all know that can't happen. ACTD would loose half it's player base, either that or we'd have some rushed terrible logs. Many ships are too short player wise to enforce Anythinbg

JamesG says:
But I think a replacement could be a good idea.

Cathy says:
But it can, and does, affect advancement.

Trish2 says:
hey we can all go to the station regs.... 1 log per month required

Malachi says:
So make a different requirement for advancing.

Trish2 says:
or maybe 1 log at the end of a mission arc?

CJ-Tala says:
Arlene: Then cite that as a reason - "You want to reach Lt.Cmdr? Try advancing your character. Prove you want it."

Malachi says:
Trish: That's a good idea.

CJ-Tala says:
Trish: That's an idea...

Keith says:
Req for advancment I like...it put it in the players control then

Tach says:
Logs do to let people know what's going on.  In a mission you can't explain much of your thoughts behind your action.  That's what the logs are for.

Jane says:
Yes Chris!

CJ-Tala says:
Trish: ...but, what if you get an arc lasting 10 months, while another ship is doing one new arc each month?

Cory says:
Exactly Steve!

Cathy says:
I think that is too little of a requirement.

JamesG says:
Logs for promotion also sucks.

Host Beth says:
I will throw this thought out: In anything in life there are requirements to participate.  Chat is one mission a week and one log...is that too much to ask?

Jane says:
Yes Tach.

KevNash says:
Weather or not I like doing logs is irrelevant. You character would become as thin as a poster representation of them. I like to write and freely compose at my keyboard, so either way it doesn't matter. I may not be on time, but I usually come up with something interesting to build my character, and that is the point of logs.

Trish2 says:
well there are arcs within arcs an SM can set it

JamesG says:
Promotion should not be based on the quality of logs.

Malachi says:
Then the 10 month one should be slightly longer.

Keith says:
Beth: No

Cory says:
Beth, I personally do not believe it is at all.

CJ-Tala says:
Beth: No - to some people. I know many people who could make the time, but couldn't complete the logs, and were forced to leave...

Malachi says:
Beth: The log, yes.

Kooky says:
I didn't think it was based on quality ... but based on whether they are submitted on time ...

Jane says:
Not the quality, no James.

Jane says:
Just that the effort was made.

CJ-Tala says:
I'm fine with doing logs, but you'll find you drop the log requirement, and push on attendance, things might just start growing.

JamesG says:
Exactly. Jane.

Host Gilles says:
FYI... here are what folks are evaluated on...

Cory says:
True, sometimes SM's make logs do only two days after mission which is to early.

Noel says:
I disagree James, someone who takes time to write a log obviously is dedicated to a sim why shouldn't he/she be promoted for it

Host Gilles says:
ATTENDANCE: 
LOGS: 
GAME INTERACTION: 
CHARACTER ATTITUDE: 
PLAYER ATTITUDE:

Jane says:
Those things.  As it stands.

Keith says:
I don't think promotion shoul dbe based on quality of logs. We have english teachers in the game, and we have burger flippers. Obviiously, you can't base it on the quality, but you can base it on wheter it's done at all

JamesG says:
I've been on ships where everybody sent in a log, and they were all great, but then got onto another ship where your log now stands out and gotten promoted.

Jane says:
But no one gets removed for not doing them.

Arlene says:
Not necessarily in that order Gilles.

Malachi says:
Couldn't logs and OOMs go under a category - Player Development?

CJ-Tala says:
Gilles: Yes...and if they don't do logs, it's their choice, and it hurts their evaluation chances...but it shouldn't be a requirement to stay in the game - it's not fair.

Arlene says:
Keith Logs are only a factor of many that promotion is based on.

Kooky says:
Hiya Mark

Malachi says:
(As optional things)

MarkB says:
hiyas Sandy

Jeremy says:
are logs just to progress your character or the vessel as a whole...you have to examine the whole horizon

JamesG says:
Noel, but what about the foreign people who to which English isn't their main language. Should they be disqualified from promotion because they can't write a great log.

CJ-Tala says:
Jane: But people do...my MO on the Scimitar just last month had to leave because he couldn't do the logs in time...

Tach says:
Growing to what end?  Watering down something that makes our characters life like and makes them "friends", not just some video game like character.

Cathy says:
I have never met a plaer who was removed for logs, lousy or lack of.

Host Beth says:
Two simple requirement are not fair?  I don't know any SM or CO that is not willing to work with a player if for a while RL gets a bit overwhelming...

Cathy says:
<player>

Host Gilles says:
Chris: If one does not wish to write a log week after week there are stations

Jane says:
That shouldn't be allowed, Chris.

KevNash says:
Even if they were a requisite for promotions, if you have a ship with CO,XO, and second, you have no room fro promo if you're LtCmdr.

CJ-Tala says:
...and what about people who speak another language? I can do a 2 page log in 30 minutes, while my CO from the Netherlands takes 3 hours to do half that amount. Is that fair to him?

Jane says:
Beth:  Does this discussion get back to management?

Trish2 says:
there are people who have english as a first language and they can't write a decent log either

Keith says:
Right Arlene, but you can't be subjective about it when evealuating for a promotion. My point was, not everybody is John Stienbeck, nor should they be expected to be. I think just making the effort evry week is enough

Kooky says:
Exactly! I get a bit of leeway when it comes to Logs due to the fact I can't use the puter during the week due to work hours

CJ-Tala says:
It shouldn't, but it's a requirement to stay in the game - miss 4 logs and you're out.

Greg says:
Stations are an unviable option for many, due to the times they play at.

Cathy says:
There are no [age minimums, Chris.

Host Beth says:
It's posted in the archives for everyone to read.

Cathy says:
<page>

Noel says:
James: Cool, their english is not great but it's the effort that counts. If you're not going to bother writing more than two lines maybe you shouldn't be the XO

Trish2 says:
I agree with Noel there

CJ-Tala says:
I know, but I'm just saying - its hard for some people to write a log...why force it?

JamesG says:
True noel, but quality of logs being a prime thing in developement means the player has to guess what their SM wants.

Arlene says:
In a lot of cases it is Keith...  I don't expect literary masterpieces from my crew...  I enjoy reading the logs and I have found my crew have gotten far better because they get to know each other better.

Host Beth says:
I actually see extremely creative logs written in pidgeon English because they are not familiar with it...

Tach says:
I've played with some people who's primary language wasn't English but who write great logs.  Sometimes the grammer is a bit bad, but it's still good writing and makes you think.

Keith says:
CJ: Becase it shows a commitament. It's not about how long it os, or if it's a work of art

Trish2 says:
yep

JamesG says:
One log for one SM is great, and for another its average.

CJ-Tala says:
Noel: This CO does 2-3 page logs a week, and it takes him a whole half hour to translate it into English...while I can do mine with ease. That's not fair to someone who's worked so hard.

Cathy says:
Maybe because we all knew logs were required when we signed up?

JamesG says:
Thats the main reason why quality shouldn't be a main Character. It would be great if it was under character development as someone suggested.

Trish2 says:
attendance also shows committment

Noel says:
James: you're right there and that should be looked into but don't drop the log requirement or next week we'll be debating whether attendance should be optional

CJ-Tala says:
What about the people who didn't sign up because logs were required? How many people have we turned away because of that fact?

Cathy says:
Quality isn't. Effort is :)

CJ-Tala says:
They came to join a chat game, not an e-mail game...

JamesG says:
Attend every week, should be enough. On time, in character, doing good jobs in missions...

Trish2 says:
Cathy: Sometimes it is difficult to judge effort

Greg says:
This is regarding the IRC game.  Attendance in IRC obviously is a must.  Logs in E-mail are more subjective, as we're proving here.

CJ-Tala says:
James: Exactly...and logs on top of that are great (if they chose).

JamesG says:
Its like school, if your doing well in class and in tests, why assign homework?

Cathy says:
::shakes her head:: It's what makes us better.

Keith says:
Attendace is an hour. We've all typed three paragraphs at least since we started chatting. Is it that hard to write a few paragrahs a week? Like I said, it doesn't have to be art

Jane says:
It's character development.

Noel says:
CJ: It's unfair but he still does it, isn't that the dedication you want in your CO?

Dawn says:
heeee

Kooky says:
hehe ... My logs are no great works of art ... But I do them on time (if I can) and I don't find it too much an effort ...

Arlene says:
It's because you do the homework that you do well in class James.

Dawn says:
eeek wrong room

Cathy says:
Agreed, Trish. But you'll figure it out eventually :)

Malachi says:
James: Exactly! All the "homework" does is supplement things.

KevNash says:
That's why I am split on the point. A person could write their brains out and never have a chance at a promotion if they have a solid crew.

Host Beth says:
JamesG: Because homework and in our case , logs....help a person or a character develope on their own...

Jane says:
We are all writing a story here... developing a reality.  Its participation in the process that makes a crew special.

CJ-Tala says:
Yes, but if you're forcing people, and they don't like their writing and don't think it's art, they lose morale and leave...I've seen it happen.

JamesG says:
And have the character development in the form of a log, or an OOM or something like that.

Malachi says:
Arlene: It's not becuase of logs that one does well to type in a chat game, though.

JamesG says:
You can develop your character in different ways. So why not see that one is as good as another?

Trish2 says:
I know that writeing a log helps me think about the character more in depth.... getting in their head so to speak....  so for me it has been a useful tool....

Cathy says:
Can you actually develop your character in one hour per week?

Arlene says:
Josh: I don't know if you totally agree with that...  the more you develop your character the more you are comfortable in the chat environment.

Jeremy says:
sure if we get rid of logs would that not cause less to be done in mission....i know i would spend the missed time on character development

Host Beth says:
So because requirements that they knew before they even joined are too 'difficult' for some...you want to scap the requirement?

Tach says:
It's part of it.  Writing the log makes you think of what happened, which you sometimes can't do in a Mission because of the pace.  If you don't know where you came from, you can't know where your going for the next session.

Jane says:
My characters are soo much deeper because of it, Trish.

Trish2 says:
it has been a way for me to get to know that character better

CJ-Tala says:
I've seen players make it to CO and have never done amazing logs, ever, but they try in missions, and worked their way up the ranks...logs don't have to be a requirement.

JamesG says:
But character development also happens in the missions.

Malachi says:
See? Now, if it were optional, then people just wouldn't get thosr "character development" points if logs help.

Trish2 says:
yep mine too

Cathy says:
My character was forged in my logs.

Jane says:
Exactly Trish.

Keith says:
The character development is crucial in my opinion, either in OOM, Or logs, or both. You'r never going to comleatly get to know a character based soley on what they do In mission::reiterates::

Jane says:
and Cathy.

Arlene says:
Josh, I also play on the PG where I don't have to do logs.  I don't find my character there as well developed and maybe a little harder to play because I'm not as comfortable with her.

Jane says:
and Keith.

Trish2 says:
LOL apparently I have been compared to God by a couple of players on the del for my roleplaying ability.... thank you Matt and David

JamesG says:
Keith, but if your character isn't growing in the missions...whats the point of playing?

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: That's your choice...but what about the other players who just can't develope a character because they're not creative enough? Should they be punished?

CJ-Tala says:
Arlene; You still have the option to do logs.

Tach says:
My newsfleet character is flat as a board because of no logs.

Malachi says:
So, basically what everyone is saying is that logs helped them, personally develop their own characters. So why can't they be optional?

Cathy says:
We have options, you know. We can join the other forms of the game where we only have to do it once. Like the newsfleet.

Trish2 says:
James: Unfortunately not all SMs do missions that promote character growth

CJ-Tala says:
Arlene: I'm SMing on the PG right now, I would LOVE to see logs...but I also know that not everyone there has time to do logs. If the PG and Abertura don't have to do logs, why does everyone else have to?

JamesG says:
True Trish, but they should...shouldn't they?

JamesG says:
I mean any experience should create growth.

Keith says:
James, the Charcater is always "On" In mission. There are things that you can do in logs that you simply couldn't do in mission, unless every mission was only about your character.

Trish2 says:
James: They should... unfortunately they don't

Cathy says:
I'm not advocating punishment, Chris. I'm advocating putting your heart into the game.

Tach says:
Newsfleet posts are NOT logs.  The purpose of the Newsfleet is to allow people to play who can't devote the hour a week, not to allow a place where writing is tantamount.

Malachi says:
But you could do logs, correct? So, it was your choice to not do as many as one a week, and you're suffering (I can't think of better wording, sorry) for it.

Jeremy says:
lets all think about this: have you always done the textbook thing in mission...or have you changed your mind because it's not what your character would do....

CJ-Tala says:
Keith: Then if the player wants to show "off" they do it on their own time...but they don't "have" to...

JamesG says:
Keith, yep and I think logs are great. I'm just saying OOMs can move your character just as far.

Keith says:
Jame: But I agree that a character must develop in mission also

Kooky says:
May I make a point here ... and I might be jumped on for this ...

Keith says:
<james>

Greg says:
I played two characters between Ens. and Capt.  Those characters (with particular emphasis on the one I played for 2.5 of the 3 years) were forged through logs, there is no doubt about it.  Without them, the character would have been phenomenally less developed.  I don't deny that they're an incredible tool.  I just think that forcing people who hate them to write them is going to breed unnecessary anger and anguish.

JamesG says:
I think someone shouldn't be promoted if they aren't evolving in the mission.

Cathy says:
Go ahead, Sandy.

Jane says:
Go Sandy.

CJ-Tala says:
::Preapres to jump Sandy:: :) jk

Malachi says:
And, if chracter development is only done in logs...well, isn't that essentially PBeM?

Kooky says:
We all signed into this role-playing game knowing full well what the requirements were ...

MarkB says:
::gets ready to drop safe on CJ::

Jane says:
No one is force them Greg.  It's a choice they can make if they want promotions

CJ-Tala says:
I agree with you Greg, 100%...

Cathy says:
Agreed, Sandy.

Noel says:
Someone give Kooky a prize

Arlene says:
Josh its  not only done in logs, character development is in conjunction with logs.  You have more time in logs to develope instead of the one hour we play.

Malachi says:
Jane: But it's not. If they want to keep playing they have to.

Jane says:
::agrees with Sandy::

JamesG says:
I remember a certain CO (No names mentioned) That sent in very similar logs, did no character development and got promoted.

CJ-Tala says:
...but I repeat, what about the people who didn't sign up because they didn't think they had the skill to do logs. I know two people I tried to get to join who didn't because of the requirement.

Keith says:
Greg: That almost leads us to another question, do people who join ACTD generally hate to write? It's stated that logs are required....this whole thing is a grey area

Cathy says:
The problem is, Malachi, that there has to be some rules. :)

CJ-Tala says:
That's 2 players the game lost, right there...who's to say how many others have turned away...

Jane says:
And how many stay and play because they love writing logs?

Cathy says:
Then maybe ACTD isn't the right game for them right now?

Kooky says:
My logs are no great work of fiction ... but I still was able to be promoted. Logs are not the only requirement for promotion ..

CJ-Tala says:
Jane: Many...but they shouldn't be made to.

Trish2 says:
well requred or no I'd probably write logs

Keith says:
Same here

Jane says:
No one can make them.

Host Beth says:
Kooky: Excellent point!  So let me ask this...for all of those that don't want logs..(and this is not menat to be taken snottily)...why did you join?  There are other role playing Chat games out there for Star Trek...

Cathy says:
I don't promote people based upon talent as a writer.

JamesG says:
Me too trish, or if they did the OOM requirement I'd do one or the other :P

Malachi says:
I know that I'd write logs, just not one a week - it would be when I felt particularily creative to do such.

Jane says:
::sits back and listens::

CJ-Tala says:
I joined because it was part of PDE at the time...

Trish2 says:
I never knew about any of them before I joined

Greg says:
Warning: Idiot alert on the approach for this one....

CJ-Tala says:
Simply put, it was part of PDE - it was the best.

JamesG says:
I joined because I didn't know about any others.

Keith says:
::joins Jane:: Care for a soda?

Cathy says:
And now its not...are we still the best?

Jane says:
Diet Coke please Keith.

Kooky says:
I joined because I was curious when I saw it ... but through this game I have met a lot of people I now consider friends ... that to me is the most important part about participating in the game.

Jeremy says:
is ACTD all about promotion though..cause that's what it seems like to me...I am fairly new and i only have one character...i couldn't care less about being promoted...don't get me wrong cause i love it when it happens but i would rather see a great person in my character than to see a Captain that i hardly knew

Malachi says:
::Agrees with James:: I was also introduced to it by a player...

Trish2 says:
I think we are... heh

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: I can't objectively say either way...

JamesG says:
Its fune being a Ens Jeremy.....

JamesG says:
err fun

CJ-Tala says:
James: Yes it is...

Cory says:
Agreed Jeremy... it is suppose to be about fun!

Keith says:
::rumages in the fidge and comes out with a Diet Coke for Jane:: Here ya go::smiles::

Greg says:
When I joined, I had *no* idea what the requirements were, nor did I know whether or not they were atypical.  I like ACTD for its structure, for its rules that others do not have.  I simply find this to be one that I disagree with (is there nayone who loves every single rule 100%?)

CJ-Tala says:
:) ::Will always have an Ens. character somewhere::

Host Beth says:
And do you think that maybe having logs and requirements helps make us the best?  Deeper character...better teamwork among players because we know each other's characters so well?

Cathy says:
Its about having fun and making friends.

KevNash says:
I read the requirement, and that's why I joined. It was a tool for a shy person to express himself.

Jane says:
Thanks Keith.  ::pops open the top and takes a long, cool drink::

Cory says:
Yes Greg! That is why I joined!

JamesG says:
Well yes Beth, but there is other ways to get inside of your fellow players.

Kooky says:
And the fun, too, is in the reply ppl send to other's logs ...

Cathy says:
So, that is one person who was attarcted by the rule.

Cathy says:
<attracted>

CJ-Tala says:
Beth: Yes, but we can still have that, without making it a requirement...people will still do logs, and we will still have deep characters.

Tach says:
Logs are part of the Chat divisions style.  If you don't like the style, create a new Handbook for a log free version of the game.  2 new divisions have been created in the last couple years, I'm sure a well  thought out new division could be created.

Jane says:
The best part of Startrek .. original series was the relationships...

Jane says:
character development....

CJ-Tala says:
I have to say I support Trish's 1 log per month/or per arc idea...and if not, I still have to say, it should be optional.

Trish2 says:
Beth: Logs don't develop teamwork between players unless they are joint logs... OOMs on the other hand do

Cathy says:
::agrees with Sandy::

JamesG says:
Tach, I don't think splitting into another division is the answer.

Cathy says:
::and Jane::

Host Beth says:
I get to know many of the characters on the ships I play on even if their logs are two sentences...

Keith says:
Case in your Favor Beth: The Woody Mia thing may have exploded, but it made for some good chracter development in the mean time :)

MarkB says:
To take something Jeremy just said. I see a lot of well this person isn't good at writing logs because of this reason or that reason so they don't get promoted..... The last I heard this is a game which means we are all her to have fun and like all games ther are certain rule and requirements.

Kooky says:
Cathy: You would seeing you send most of the replies!! <j/k>

Host Beth says:
Keith: :) {{{{{{{{{{{{{{Keith}}}}}}}}}}}

Noel says:
Trish: Then do an OOM and send it over the mailing list

CJ-Tala says:
Steve: Then you run the risk of a lot of people moving to that division and having a LOT of Chat ships being shut down.

JamesG says:
Beth, yeah because your an active player in both mission and log.

Cathy says:
Hee.....maybe that's why I got promoted? Its not the logs....its the replies? <G>

Jane says:
SMs like to promote well developed characters.

Trish2 says:
Noel: Done that lots

Kooky says:
HEHE ..

Arlene says:
But we do have an option for people who do not want to write logs or cannot write logs now.   They are the Stations.  So why aren't the stations full with a waiting list of people who don't want to do logs all the time?

Trish2 says:
And I am a person who loves to write logs

Jeremy says:
we are fixin to break 400 assigned characters.....how many of those are deep characters and how many are not...does it matter? how many players have FUN playing them anyway?

Noel says:
me to

Cory says:
Good point Arlene!!

Noel says:
*too

CJ-Tala says:
Jane: Then isn't that the SMs perogative? I'm sure SMs don't like kicking players out of the game for missing logs.

JamesG says:
Was that rhetorical Trish?

Trish2 says:
but I think that the people who lose out the most by not doing a log are the people who don't write them

Greg says:
Some of that is that the station times are simply impossible for soe people.

CJ-Tala says:
Arlene: Because the Stations aren't every day, in prime times...

Jane says:
The SM's should have to kick anyone out of the game for not writing logs.

Greg says:
<some>

Host Beth says:
All right: I've seen a lot of mention of OOM's...but what about people who work different schedules than everyone...or are too busy during the week to meet up with others...

Jane says:
shouldn't  have to I meant....

Keith says:
Having played on a ship where it is an officialy unstated reqirtment for promotion, I stick by my guns that quality should not be a factor at all. It's simply if you do them at all.

CJ-Tala says:
Avalon - Sunday 10pm EST, Arcadia - 9pm EST, Kootenai - Wednesday 9pm EST.

Malachi says:
Because stations...well...Personally I think I would find a chat station boring. I hated DS9, so I figured the same would apply to a chat station.

Jane says:
Then they can write a log.

Tach says:
I don't think it would happen, not as bad as some are thinking.  Besides, do the numbers really matter?  If logs annoy some people that much, maybe splitting would help.

Trish2 says:
James: For someone who has read my novels....  do you think that was rhetorical ? :)

JamesG says:
Beth, OOMs can always be done between ships.

JamesG says:
Probably Trish :)

Cathy says:
OOMs about the crew sitting around getting drunk and wrestling somehow don't seem to equal logs. ;p

Kooky says:
I've done OOM's with char's from other ships before

KevNash says:
I was one of the verbatim mission ppl when I started, but now, I feel that I could possibly write a storyline. And that growth was due to the requirement.

Noel says:
Keith: here's my log this week: i flew the ship to Betazed. Should i get promoted?

JamesG says:
You open a Comm channel and OOM, or if you don't have a moment. you do a log and too bad.

Jane says:
LOL Cathy.

Malachi says:
Ack...sorry boys and girls, gotta go. See ya all later, this was a good discussion!

JamesG says:
Cathy LOL

Trish2 says:
Cathy: That's true... but there are things that can be done with players in OOMs that should not be devoted time to in mission

Cathy says:
I got an actual log from a player once. It was 3 words long.

JamesG says:
But They are fun to read Cathy.

Kooky says:
hee ... Sounds like our Shore Leave, Cathy!

Tach says:
I've OOM'd between 2 ships with my own characters.  Both ships happened to be on Earth at the same time, and I wanted to have the two clash.

Keith says:
Noel: That would fall in the realm of....help me out Beth. You do have to stay within the confies of the game.....good point though

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: Some SMs don't accept that.

Cathy says:
That palyer got better, gained more self confidence and his logs get longer.

CJ-Tala says:
I've seen SMs send out e-mails "This is unacceptable, redo it, or get 0 credit."

Trish2 says:
Tach: I did a double date with two of my characters... talk about crazy!

Jane says:
That's just wrong, Chris.  I'm sorry to hear that goes on.

Cathy says:
He was up to whole paragraphs before he left. And he did get promoted :)

Host Beth says:
You're doing fine on your own Keith :)

JamesG says:
Sounds crazy...sounds like trish.

Noel says:
Keith: Thank you. Still i understand about the quality thing, not all of us are writers

Tach says:
Sanity is highly over rated anyway.  ;)

Host Beth says:
::chuckles:: I've been called a log nazi at times because I do nag the players that are late consistantly...but qaulity has never been a factor in judging for promotions.  It has always been about the 'effort' put in to them...

CJ-Tala says:
Steve: Yes it is. :)

MarkB says:
Steve it must be pointed out that you are on of the most insane people in ACTD which made doing the OOM with yourself perfect. <G>

Jeremy says:
but you also have SM's that will work with you on anything....it evens out in my opionion

Cathy says:
SMs are not school teachers.

Jane says:
a "log nazi"?  I love it....

Host Beth says:
Ergh!  I hate these new glasses...sorry for my typing lately folks :)

CJ-Tala says:
Beth: What about the players who don't put effort in them, and just do 1 liners because they HAVE to?

Cathy says:
Any log is better than none.

Cathy says:
::has been a log Nazi too::

Keith says:
You can't do anything that falls outside of your character, or the charaters you are interacting with in an OOM. If you try and do things that would affect the entire ship, you'd be breeaching some kind of good conduct, and probably it would be disallowed, by the SM

CJ-Tala says:
No effort is worse then nothing.

Host Beth says:
Then I work with them to find out why...

JamesG says:
If people enjoy doing OOMs more than logs, and do them every week, I've never seen them as not being able to replace a log.

Noel says:
I agree with Beth, most times my logs are just cutting the deadline but my SM doesn't care

Arlene says:
Chris:  How about using logs as a barameter is determining who is willing to give the extra effort that maybe required when it comes to the command slots.

CJ-Tala says:
Personally, I've done the "log nazi" routine, and I hate doing it, hunting down players to get their logs in on time, or have to threaten them "if you don't, your SM will remove you."

JamesG says:
Exactly keith.

JamesG says:
Just like in a log you can't do the same thing.

Trish2 says:
Cathy: I don't necessarily agree with that... we had a player who stole lock stock and barrel a log from another player only doing a find replace for the character's name to make it his own

Host Beth says:
Chris: That comes with the pips...just part of the job :)

Keith says:
I still like the Either/Or model. Either a log Or an OOM should fufil the requirment

CJ-Tala says:
Arlene: Sounds perfect. Those who put in the effort get the jobs, those who don't, don't get penalized.

Greg says:
::agrees with Arlene::

Arlene says:
No but they do wonder why they don't get promoted as fast.

CJ-Tala says:
Beth: It shouldn't be part of the job. How many times have teachers said "I'm not going to hunt you for your work?"

Cathy says:
I log Nazi only to get the logs turned in. I never threaten for lateness.

CJ-Tala says:
Arlene: Then you explain to them - no effort, no promotion.

Noel says:
Trish: then isn't good the log was a requirement, it helped weed out the dishonest player

CJ-Tala says:
...just don't say "no log - bye bye."

Trish2 says:
LOL we already knew he was a jerk :)

Cathy says:
The player who stole the log needed to be told it was unacceptable.

Trish2 says:
and I believe he was

Tach says:
And plageristic

Tach says:
Hi James

Noel says:
lol

CJ-Tala says:
HI James...

JamesG says:
I say if they don't do anything no log, no OOM no nothing it makes sense for the SM to hunt you down.

MarkB says:
Hiyas James

Cory says:
Hya James!

Jane says:
Is that The James?

James says:
hi... just watchin'

Greg says:
hi James

CJ-Tala says:
James: But is it fair to the SM who has to hunt down 5 players every week?

JamesG says:
....probably the Y man.

Cathy says:
Maybe more like gentle reminders to good players?

Cathy says:
Hi James

Trish2 says:
Gettin' the pulse o'da peeple I see

Kooky says:
Hey James

Tach says:
Most ships (and I think the handbook) don't say "1 log and your out".  Isn't the number 3 logs?

Keith says:
You can run into a sticky wicket when you get into quality of logs and such. I personally know one player, that amongst other reasons, has never been promoted becasue they either write no log, or a terrible one. This person it still a Ltjg after four years::winks at Dawn::

JamesG says:
I've seen the CO do it before, in the mission.

CJ-Tala says:
Steve: It's 4...

Keith says:
I think it's 3

CJ-Tala says:
4 logs in 4 weeks, or 4 in 6 six.

Cathy says:
Quality is not important. Effort is :)

JamesG says:
4 in 6 never heard that rule before.

JamesG says:
....I always thought it was 3 strikes.

Noel says:
Cathy: i agree

Keith says:
::aggres with Cathy::

Kooky says:
::agrees with Cathy too::

Dawn says:
::looks at Keith::

CJ-Tala says:
I've also seen places where the rule was bent because "he used to do good logs, so we'll give him some slack" and that's not fair to the new players who have to struggle to do a log each week, or get kicked out.

JamesG says:
Good reminders to good players works better than penalties.

MarkB says:
4 consecutive logs missed is grounds for removal.... but in three years I haven't seen that done once.

Cathy says:
The worse write can be the best player. But both parts of the game make that charcater whole.

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: Some people don't have the time for that effort - 3 words, 1 line, or 10 pages...

Jane says:
Sounds like it happens though, Mark.

Jeremy says:
but yet we all agree that those that forth the extra effort should get the rewards correct?

CJ-Tala says:
Mark: I have...many times.

Tach says:
OK, even more so (never was good at details).  Isn't that the leeway you need?

Trish2 says:
Jeremy: I think so

Jane says:
Correct Jeremy.

CJ-Tala says:
Just last month, my SM had to remove my MO.

JamesG says:
To have to write good logs every week, and get nothing for it, is stupid. Thats why quality shouldn't count.

Jeremy says:
then shouldn't  that work both ways

Cathy says:
Chris, I honestly cannot agree. I was going to school full time and working two jobs, also raising three kids. My logs probably stunk, but I always managed to write something.

Trish2 says:
JamesG: been there and done that... and I eventually left

Keith says:
Beth? Gilles? Any stats on how many players have been booted out of ACTD for lack of logs? I'm willing to wager that nary a one has been kicked out for soley lack of logs in the last year

JamesG says:
Yep, you and me both.

CJ-Tala says:
James: But what about the players who are promoted because of good quality logs? That's not fair to those who just aren't able to do it. It shouldn't be that way, but it is...

KevNash says:
Here Here Cathy.

Jane says:
How so Jeremy?  What's the punishment?

Host Gilles says:
ONLY lack of logs... no

Host Gilles says:
Usually there is more to it

MarkB says:
Question for command staff  and SMs in the room what do you look for in logs?

JamesG says:
Tala, I think it should be based on how you do in the missions, not the logs.

Jeremy says:
just as gilles says...usually there is more to it....can someone just eat one potato chip?

Keith says:
There you have it then. Are logs really enforced now anways?

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: Yes, that's your schedule, but can you say that for every other player, or potential player in the future?

Host Beth says:
I've never heard of it...not just for logs...

Arlene says:
When someone is lacking logs there is usually more going on.  It's up to the SM to find out.  When some is booted (Which I've never seen either) for just logs, you can bet there was something else also.

JamesG says:
If you sim well, and show up every week, for a sufficent amount of time you shold be promoted.

Trish2 says:
James: Not everyone gets to do wonderful things in all missions

Greg says:
I look for a thing in my inbox saying <character name> <stardate>.  I tick their box saying "done a log" for that week. 

Tach says:
Some sort of effort to give a glimpse into your  (character's) thoughts.

JamesG says:
Trish, yeah but you can still busy yourself.

CJ-Tala says:
We also have to look down the road...what if our numbers don't increase? I'm willing to bet we'd see an increase if the log requirement was dropped, or at least decreased.

MarkB says:
Myself I look for details on what happened in mission.... character development is nice but it isn't the main thing I look for.

JamesG says:
Create a plasma leak and fix it for 10 minutes.

Cathy says:
Chris, you can type up a few lines in the ten minutes after the mission. Requirement done.

Tunik says:
I agree with Trish. Most of the time, doctors sit in their offices talking to themselves. Or... maybe it's just me.

Cathy says:
::likes Greg's method::

Keith says:
CJ: I disagree. I don't think it would make a whit of diffeance

Trish2 says:
James G: yeah... but week after week of ::looks for skree on sensors:: and getting nothing gets frustrating :)

MarkB says:
Plasma leak? ::covers Arlene's eyes::

JamesG says:
Or have some underline thing going on with your character.

Arlene says:
::chuckles and makes notes::

CJ-Tala says:
Arlene: What about the players who "go to the brink" and get threatened with removal? This would decrease that problem as well...

Noel says:
Tunik: Engineers too but we have to try at least

JamesG says:
Such as make up 12 NPC's and play them off each other.

Tach says:
But the term look for is dangerously vague.  As a Command Staff, I make sure it's in.  I'm more concerned as a player with the "why'd I do that".

KevNash says:
Yeah JamesG, but what if the SM makes the plasma leak destroy the ship. Bad choice.

Tunik says:
Well... some of us get a little cynical after a while.

Tach says:
::Wins Arlene's notes in a poker game to protect her poor crew.::

JamesG says:
Randy did that once in a mission though and go blamed...but still you can make yourself busy though non character interaction.

Jeremy says:
Thanks "Tach"

Trish2 says:
Heh SM's can't destroy the ship with out permission from higer up... but they can destroy your character :)

JamesG says:
Kev, if the SM does that....then at least you get a new ship...maybe a bigger ship too!

Arlene says:
Chris:  Removal is not the first thing I say.  I offer help...  There are always options.  Sometimes the player just needs a break...  There is an LOA for that.  There is always a compromise.  Removal should be a last resort.

JamesG says:
Or in my case a shuttlecraft....

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: What about the players who have to leave right after the mission, or the players who have 6 characters? Or the staff members who don't have to do logs because their on a Staff-Only ship. One way or another, people are alienated, and it's not fair to the whole.

Tach says:
SM's don't need permission, at least as far as I have heard.

Tach says:
wb Dawn

KevNash says:
wb Dawn

JamesG says:
They can destroy it, then bring it back.

CJ-Tala says:
Arlene: Should be - but it's not always done that way. The rules are set, they should be either enforced perfectly, or adjusted.

Noel says:
CJ: What am i doing with six players? 

Trish2 says:
Ship: need permission   Character: don't need permission

Cathy says:
If you have six characters and can't find the time to write a log then you need to get rid of a character :)

Cory says:
Chris, to get promoted on a staff only ship you need to do logs..

Host Beth says:
Good point, Arlene...and I honestly don't know any command or staff that won't workj with a plyer that is having trouble...

Dawn says:
thx, I would like a complete transcript of this topic please!!!

Tach says:
If having 6 characters get's in the way of logs, some of them will be removed.

Jane says:
::agrees with Cathy::

Kooky says:
Chris: I can only get on-line 2 times a week (Saturday and Sunday). I manage to get my logs done somehow

Arlene says:
Chris:  We are human not perfect.  Nothing is perfect.

Greg says:
If a player has 6 characters, they should be able to fulfill the requirements.  I on't like it, but at the moment, a log is compulsory, and people who can't do that shouldn't have so many characters that it becomes impossible.

CJ-Tala says:
Yes...but that's the point - then you're removing them because they can't do the logs...case in point.

Host Gilles says:
Each new character MUST be approved first by your current SMs  They are asked if you fulfill the requirements of your current characters

Host Beth says:
For those that came in late...or got hit by the moofies..email me for a complete transcipt please at: trekkie@direcway.com

CJ-Tala says:
No requirement, then players (some of them in this room), can handle characters, staff members can bring in characters while still being an SM...

Cathy says:
No, they would be removed due to being overwhelmed.

JamesG says:
Character development, interaction with others, and keeping busy should be part of promotion. Logs are good for character delveopment.

Trish2 says:
I can do that Beth

Tach says:
If that is the case Trish, someone should have told me.  Not that I plan on blowing up the Broadsword, but it could have happened.

Tach says:
And that's the SM in all divisions.

Trish2 says:
heeh

Host Gilles says:
And any SM assigned to a non-staff ship MUST do logs as well

Jeremy says:
Gilles in my opinion  that is a whole different discussion

JamesG says:
But they shouldn't be the come all end all. OOMs should be given equal value.

CJ-Tala says:
Gilles: That rule wasn't enforced until recently - you know, because I complained and I'm sure a few others did to.

Host Beth says:
Thanks Trish but I've got my editor set up in the corner writing down everything we say.. ;)

CJ-Tala says:
Gilles: Yes, but why does a staff-ship get by the rule. When I last checked, the PG wasn't a station - it should require logs as well.

Trish2 says:
oh I misread what you meant by that Beth

Arlene says:
Propose it Chris.

Noel says:
CJ: I agree there

Cathy says:
I just think that if you care enough to play that  that you can find the time to write a few lines.

Trish2 says:
I have heard the PG is technically not in the Chat Division but in a Divisoin of their own

Cory says:
I agree with you Cathy!

Kooky says:
I agree with Cathy.

Keith says:
I Agree with Cathy too

CJ-Tala says:
Alright, well if the log requirement ISN'T decreased/removed, I'd like to suggest that Staff-Ships (not stations) include the 1 log/week requirement...

Cathy says:
::feels special::

Greg says:
Cathy, I agree that you probably can

JamesG says:
You are special :)

Host Beth says:
::holds up her hands for a moment :: Let me interrupt here for a second...

Jane says:
That's cause you are.

Host Gilles says:
Chris:I never knew the reasoning of no required logs on the Paula Greene... but you know I agree with that comment

Cathy says:
Thanks, James!

Jane says:
::chuckling away::

JamesG says:
What are you going to disagree that Cathy is special beth?

CJ-Tala says:
::Listens to Beth::

Trish2 says:
I completely agree with you there CJ the PG and now Abertura should be shining examples 
not the exceptions

Cathy says:
::pays Jane::

Tunik says:
Okay...

Keith says:
Question for Staff:: Is anything going to come out of this discussion? Will there possibly actully be a change?

Host Beth says:
Folks...hold on for a second... :)

Jane says:
::holds on::

Kooky says:
::holds onto Jane::

JamesG says:
::puts himself on hold, dances to the hold music::

Keith says:
::holds on to Kooky:

Cory says:
::holds onto Sandy and Jane::

Host Beth says:
Now I need to know if you feel like we another week on this topic or not?

Jane says:
Yes please!

Host Gilles says:
::nods::

Kooky says:
Congo line anybody?

Cory says:
Beth, yes!

Jane says:
LOL

CJ-Tala says:
Yes.

Tunik says:
Indeed so.

JamesG says:
Another week.....awwwwwww.

Noel says:
One more week

Tach says:
Week, month, whichever.  <G>

Tunik says:
We need another week.

Tunik says:
I have to go.

CJ-Tala says:
Beth: This might takes a few weeks of going around in circles...LOL

Cathy says:
We may need months :)

Trish2 says:
I don't think we are going anywhere with this conversation myself

Host Beth says:
LOL Kooky....

Arlene says:
Sheesh, that went fast.

CJ-Tala says:
I would actually suggest a group be formed to debate and make a ruling...made of players AND staff.

Greg says:
I'm sure this conversation could easily fill another hour, but one question - will it go anywhere other than in circles?

Noel says:
Here here CJ

Jane says:
What Greg said.

Trish2 says:
yep wht greg said

Jane says:
Is what we have to say going to make a difference?

Host Gilles says:
Keith: Beth, James and I are hear and we are listening....  and I am taking notes.. .and we will continue to discuss it... it is a subject worth discussion

JamesG says:
Maybe we should have a meeting to meet on the meeting on the meeting that we will be meeting for on the meeting for next week.

James says:
no committees!  sorry.

CJ-Tala says:
Greg: It will, until someone decides that a change will, or will not be made.

Jane says:
Woo hoo!  Thanks Gilles.

Host Gilles says:
LOL JamesG

Kooky says:
ROFL JamesG!

CJ-Tala says:
James: Any reason why not?

JamesG says:
Committes Suck Tala.

James says:
but I'm watching and reading.

CJ-Tala says:
They get things done.

JamesG says:
No they don't....not in something like this.

Cathy says:
A committe can only make reccomendations. But , if you are fair the committee will represent both sides and may never agree on a reccomendation.

Trish2 says:
hey why don't we get everyone say for or against keeping the requirement (or abstain)

CJ-Tala says:
ESPC was a committee, TechSpecs is in theory a committee...people discussing, debating and coming to a conclusion.

Cathy says:
That's why James carries the mega gavel ;p

Host Gilles says:
Not commitees.... Teams :-)

Host Beth says:
Greg makes a good point....so how about I throw another controversial topic out for next Friday and we'll hit this later on in a couple of weeks...give people to think of new arguements for and against ;)

Cory says:
LOL!

James says:
ESPC was done when I wasn't around.  TechSpecs is not a committee.

CJ-Tala says:
Sounds good Beth..

JamesG says:
Yeah...this is only to make us feel like we are being heard, james already made up his mind on that folded piece of paper he brought with him.

James says:
sorry.  I'm not big on committees. 

Cathy says:
How about we all write it down in logs? <BEG>

Host Gilles says:
Beth.... send mail with that in mind... I like it

Greg says:
LOL Cathy

Kooky says:
hehe Cathy!

JamesG says:
LOL Cathy You are special.

Host Gilles says:
::grins @ Cathy::

Cathy says:
Hee....

JamesG says:
:)

James says:
but that doesn't mean I don't love you all.  :)

Host Beth says:
LOL Cathy - And Trish...another good point so....everyone say 'For' or 'Against' or 'Don't care'

CJ-Tala says:
James: Except me...everyone hates me... ;) jk

Noel says:
FOR

Arlene says:
FOR

CJ-Tala says:
For what? Against what? Needs clarification.

Host Beth says:
Awwwwww....we love you Chris :)

JamesG says:
Well, yeah we do errr...oh you were just kidding....

Greg says:
AGAINST

CJ-Tala says:
For keeping it as is, or for changing?

Keith says:
We can alll agree to disagree peacfully::waves some daisys around and listens to the Grateful Dead::

Trish2 says:
the requirement of logs

JamesG says:
Against making a decsion.

MarkB says:
FOR

Kooky says:
Undecided

Tach says:
For keeping logs

Host Beth says:
For logs being a requirement..and you can also say Don't Know

Keith says:
FOR LOGS

CJ-Tala says:
Against the requirement.

Jeremy says:
FOR

JamesG says:
Against.

Cathy says:
For:) Definitley. Sorry, Chris.

MarkB says:
::drops safe on CJ:: Carol said I could. <G>

Jane says:
For

Trish2 says:
requirement: marginally against

KevNash says:
For keeping logs.

CJ-Tala says:
That's alright Cathy, you have your opinion, I have mine. :)

Ty says:
Against the Requirement. For Optional Logs.

KevNash says:
Will do them either way.

Kooky says:
::doesn't matter either way as she will still do logs::

CJ-Tala says:
Mark: I've had a lot heavier dropped on my head...::Points to Gilles' anvil collection::

Dawn says:
Keep Logs as an requirement

Host Gilles says:
:-)

Keith says:
:)\

CJ-Tala says:
Sandy: I'll still do them, but I know not everyone is reprisented here...

JamesG says:
For the log or OOM rule though :)

Kooky says:
True... That's why I said undecided ... I can see both sides of the argument ...

Keith says:
::his idea::

Host Gilles says:
I like the OOM for a log idea myself

Host Beth says:
This is just for this group...it in no way is supposed to represent the players that didn't attend :)

Jeremy says:
also we have to keep in mind that the players that hang around on the server are generally the players that write logs religously anyway

Cathy says:
::doesn't like the OOM thing::

Jane says:
I like the OOM as a log as well.

Host Gilles says:
LOL Trish !

JamesG says:
LOL trish

Keith says:
Good point Beth

Jane says:
OOM instead of a log

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: I don't either...if you can't do a log, how can you do an OOM?

Keith says:
I like my Either Or option

JamesG says:
Hang around the server....heh...that used to be me.

Kooky says:
I don't ... I cannot do OOM's but I CAN do logs ...

Cathy says:
That's my point. We agree on something!

Jane says:
Either or

CJ-Tala says:
That requirement would just make things worse...

JamesG says:
That should go towards promotions as well. Hanging around the server.

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: Yep...who would have thought. ;)

Host Gilles says:
Either Log or OOM...  ::thinks that was what he meant::

Jeremy says:
you have to think...for example my CTO and myself have a very hard time sceduling OOM's because of our large time zone gap

Kooky says:
JamesG: Then I should be an Admiral by now ... there once was a time when I was here every day ... before I got a job ...

Tach says:
Although there are (or were) 4 of us here anyway, we did an informal poll on the Cherokee.   The vote was like 11 to 1 to keep them, and the one was because he's not got much time.

CJ-Tala says:
Gilles: But what about the people who already have trouble with logs? Then you go and tell them "make time for more chat" or a 0 for this weeks requirement...

JamesG says:
Me too Dawn.

Host Gilles says:
Chris: Trouble as in what?

Cathy says:
Hmmm...I thought we were shelving this for now?

Jane says:
LOL

Jane says:
We just can't stop!

CJ-Tala says:
Not creative enough, don't care about them, don't have the time...a number of possibilities...

Kooky says:
Guess not, Cathy :)

Host Gilles says:
Cathy... since we are here   LOL

Greg says:
Just while we have... 22 people here (most of whom this won't apply to), could I ask all players who currently play in the PBeM division to whisper me when they have a moment, please?

CJ-Tala says:
::Zips his lips shut::

KevNash says:
Agrees with Tach as he is one of the 4.

Host Gilles says:
Chris: Different cases... different solutions....

Tach says:
It's like politics or religion.  Once it's open, it's impossible to close tis pandora's box.  <G>

Cathy says:
Maybe you should just go according to the old saying....."If it ain;t broke, don't fix it"?

JamesG says:
Unless you have a good amount of left over duct tape Tach.

CJ-Tala says:
Gilles: But then you add another solution, which could just make things harder...like sticking a person in a room and saying "die by stabbing, or poison, your choice." OOM or Log, it won't solve problems. I don't think so at least.

MarkB says:
::closes pandora's box and puts one of Gilles' anvils on top::

Host Gilles says:
::grins @ Mark::

Keith says:
Subectivity is a concern also. I'm not a great writer, but I think an "effort only" if things remain the same as far as logs

Tach says:
::Watches the anvil go flying across the room as the box reopens.::

Keith says:
Effort counts

Cathy says:
Effort is all that counts.

CJ-Tala says:
Steve: This debate will last for days/months/years now... :)

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: That's how it should be, but it's not in all places...

Host Gilles says:
::grins:: Probably.....

Host Beth says:
But unfortunately the keeper of the keys to this box needs to go feed her poor pitiful starving dog that is staring at her :)

JamesG says:
Effort shouldn't matter.

Tach says:
CJ's an Optimist I see.  <G>

JamesG says:
Except in missions.

Host Gilles says:
::pants at Beth::

Cathy says:
If I'm an English major and you are a high school kid struggling, should my log count more than yours?

MarkB says:
LOL Beth

Keith says:
I'm outta here too. Nice meeting all of you I hadnn't :)

Jane says:
Thanks for leading the discussion Beth.

Kooky says:
no it shouldn't

MarkB says:
ok I have things to do before bed later all

Tach says:
I have to go as well.  Talk to everyone soon.  :)

Jane says:
It was a good one!

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: No, but some SMs base on quality and quantity...

JamesG says:
Yeah Thanks Beth

JamesG says:
Your the greatest

Host Beth says:
I want to thank everyone for attending tonight....everybody had wonderful things to say :)

Host Gilles says:
VERY good discussion Beth

Tach says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Friends}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: That's why it's not fair...

Kooky says:
Nite Steve

JamesG says:
(((((((((((((((((((((beth))))))))))))))) We love you.

Host Gilles says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Beth }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

CJ-Tala says:
It's been fun Beth, we'll have to do it again some time. :)

CJ-Tala says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Beth }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Noel says:
Nite all

Cathy says:
Maybe the problem isn't the logs then but the  SMs?

Host Beth says:
Awwww.....::blushes and kicks at the floor:: Gee whillikers...

Dawn says:
laters, gonna email ya about a complete tranny soom

Cathy says:
Thanks, Beth!

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: That's something to consider.

Dawn says:
<soon>

Arlene says:
a Standard Cathy?

CJ-Tala says:
Arlene: Someone might want to look into it.

Cathy says:
Wouldn't that make sense?

Arlene says:
hmmmm Maybe Chris

CJ-Tala says:
::Wonders if he's going to get kicked out if he keeps talking and gives an innocent smile::

Cathy says:
We have standards for most things, why not logs?

Host Gilles says:
The last SM meeting we were discussion SM evaluations by players

Kooky says:
Maybe SM's should have guidelines to follow ...

CJ-Tala says:
Sandy: Sounds reasonable.

Host Beth says:
I promise I will hold this topic again in a few weeks :)  So remember these new ideas...

JamesG says:
::Steps up on the box:: Logs should be worth an OOM ::Steps back down:: later guys.

Host Gilles says:
We do have guidelines for evaluations...

Host Gilles says:
The ESPC guidelines

Jane says:
Thanks Beth!

Host Gilles says:
Thanks Beth !!

Host Beth says:
You are most welcome :)

CJ-Tala says:
Gilles: Yes, but those base on quality as well...at least, that's how they're interpreted in some places.

Greg says:
Thank-you Beth

Trish2 says:
unfortunately Gilles: Not all SMs agree with ESPC

CJ-Tala says:
We getting booted now Beth? :)

Cathy says:
Quality is subjective.

Host Beth says:
Come back often!  You guys were great!

Trish2 says:
indeed quality and effort are subjective

Cathy says:
I amy love a log and Gilles may hate the same one. Who is right?

Cathy says:
<may>

Host Gilles says:
All rules can be interpretted differently ... like rules of law

Greg says:
Cathy: You are.  Dogs are adorable :-)

KevNash says:
night all. Interesting discussion. I will await the outcome.

Host Gilles says:
::shivers:: I hope we don't need lawyers in ACTD :-)

Jane says:
::remembers she has a log to write::  Good night all!

Cathy says:
Hee

Trish2 says:
hehe eeek

CJ-Tala says:
Cathy: Everyone has their own opinions. It should be a point based system 1 for done, 0 for 
not...

Kooky says:
And that shouldn't count ... the fact that the logs are done and submitted as per the requirement should be all that should count ...

Cathy says:
::agrees with Sandy::

CJ-Tala says:
(or something along those lines)

Host Gilles says:
Chris:Some use the points  ::raises hand::

Arlene says:
Chis, that is what I do now.

CJ-Tala says:
Gilles: As do I on the Scimitar, however it's not enforced as a requirement.

Host Gilles says:
And late logs are counted for points too (in my case)

Arlene says:
except I use 2 for one time, 1 for late, 0 for none.

Cathy says:
I have never told a player that his or her log wasn't good enough. That's just not fair.

Greg says:
Chris, that's exactly how I score mine.  I have a spreasheet, filled in in binary, attendance and logs.  1 or 0 for each, total of 2 is a perfect score, they'll get it whatever their logs looked like if they wrote one.  Late log is good for .5.

CNS_Ens_Jakiel says:
Extra points for long or creative logs?

Host Gilles says:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< End  Transcript until next time>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  LOL

Cathy says:
No.

Kooky says:
Agreed Cathy. Not everyone can write a long log ... some of us just don't have that ability ...

CJ-Tala says:
Alright...::Zips lips shut:: I'll continue this debate next time with you guys. :)

Cathy says:
That gives good writers an advantage. :)

Host Beth says:
ROFL  I was JUST about to hit enter on something just like that Gilles!!

Host Gilles says:
::grins:: Scary minds think alike

CJ-Tala says:
Night all...have fun!

Greg says:
I don't give extra points for long and creative, but if they stick in my mind as being that I can't say it won't bias me at the next command staff meeting to evaluate them.

Host Beth says:
ACK!  that means I am starting to think like you!!

CJ-Tala says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Beth }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

CJ-Tala says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Arlene }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Host Beth says:
Arlene: Help me!!

CJ-Tala says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Cathy }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

CJ-Tala says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Kooky }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Cathy says:
Jane and I wrote a joint log that was somewhere around 20 pages long. :)

CJ-Tala says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Trish2 }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Trish2 says:
night CJ

Cathy says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Chris

Cathy says:
}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Host Gilles says:
I have to feed the goldfish.... ::lies:: Night All !!

Kooky says:
Later all!

Cathy says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Gilles}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Host Beth says:
{{{{{{{{{{{Everyone}}}}}}}}}  I love you all to death so don't take this personally...Scoot!

Host Gilles says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{ Cathy }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Cathy says:
Night, Beth!!!!!

Host Gilles says:
{{{{{{{{{{{ Friends }}}}}}}}}}}}

Arlene says:
Shove them out the door Beth.  LOL

Arlene says:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Friends}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Greg says:
::looks at clock and sees 0315:: Time flies:-)

Greg says:
'night all
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<End>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>